#141 - Khaled Hassan: The Silent Coup: How Islamists Captured The Civil Service

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Peter sits down with Khaled Hassan to discuss immigration, extremism, and why Britain’s institutions have become incapable of enforcing boundaries or even discuss them honestly. From counter-terrorism failures to media self-censorship, we examine how fear of controversy has replaced decision-making and why suppressing uncomfortable conversations doesn’t reduce risk, but pushes it into darker, more dangerous directions. This is a conversation about red lines, state authority, and what happens when a country refuses to define either.

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• Transcript

  Peter McCormack

  think I hear each one, as you say, it definitely

  Khaled Hassan

  it's quite weird. Yes, it's really quite weird. But, you know, married to an English woman, you know, from the northeast, so you know, also quite, you know, very proud of the Northeast and all that stuff. So it's, have you been sucked into the Northeast football? Not really. No, I'd like to, actually, I'd like to, I'd like to a bit, yeah, I haven't had the chance yet, because we haven't been living in the Northeast for a long time.

  Peter McCormack

  Who's the nearest Premier League side?

  Khaled Hassan

  That's interesting. Actually, Leeds is not too far. Manchester is not too far. Even you know,

  Unknown Speaker

  Leeds is good. I've been

  Khaled Hassan

  to Ellen Road, all right, yes, Leeds is good. Yeah, yeah, absolutely, yeah. Well, it's

  Peter McCormack

  great to meet you, Khaled. I normally, I normally have here, yes, five or six pieces of paper full of questions. Yes, today, I don't I have a blank sheet, because we're touching on a subject which is widely debated and discussed at the moment in the UK, and at a time I think the UK is really trying to understand what it is, what it wants to be. And certainly in my sphere of podcast worlds. It can be something that drives clicks and drives kind of debate and anger, but, like, I don't really understand Islam myself particularly well. Like, I know enough I know the basics, probably less than I know about Christianity, but I don't really understand it as a religion. All I know is that we have some issues, some significant issues in the country with integration. Yes, yes. So where's a good place to even start?

  Khaled Hassan

  I think it's a very interesting question. Actually, if you ask me where we could start on this, on this conversation, I will probably start with decision making, as in the British government, choosing certain policies that basically drove us to where we are now. Because I think regardless of you know what anyone says, I think it's number one. It's a British problem, as in British as in British institutions, you know, decision making. Because if you look at Islam, you're going to find that there are actually many versions of Islam. So there is the UE version of Islam, which is, you know, extremely tolerant. You know, they don't, they even find it actually, when I talk to my friends in the UAE, and I have a lot of connections in the UAE, including with some people who are very well connected. You realize that they've developed this culture where asking you what your religion is actually quite personal. You know, they don't do it anymore. And if you cross the border and go to Saudi Arabia or elsewhere, that's the main question, like, that's, that's the question that decides how people deal with you, essentially, your religion, your beliefs, you know, all of that stuff. So there are quite a few versions of Islam, but I think the dominant version of Islam is a version that is to different degrees, quite political in many ways. But regardless of whatever it is in the UK, we could have chosen, like I always say this, if you allow every Emirati to move to London tomorrow, London is going to be one of the greatest cities globally. It's going to be amazing for business. It's going to be amazing, you know, to. Start the business to, you know, have a family, whatever it is. If you allow the same number of, you know, the equivalent number of people from Afghanistan or Pakistan, you're going to have serious issues because of the difference in, you know, what kind of version of Islam they practice. And no one wants to admit this. That's the challenge I have. No one wants to talk about this because that's racist. If you say, Look, if you allow a huge number of people from Pakistan or Afghanistan a culture where, you know, it's relatively okay to abuse your wife, to beat your wife, you know, to have FGM, for example, you know, female genital mutilation, then it becomes a really uncomfortable conversation, and people like the BBC don't even want to talk to you.

  Peter McCormack

  Well, that's the thing, because this is a problem of the mainstream Yes. At the moment, yes. This is a problem of mainstream media. Yes, mainstream politics. It's not a problem of conversations in the pub on podcasts which are independent. And for a long time, the mainstream controlled everything because we didn't have an Internet yes, now two people can sit in a room like this with a couple of microphones and a camera operator, and we can create something that the whole world can watch, and 1000s might interact with it, 10s of 1000s, hundreds of 1000s. And so those conversations have gone from the pub to the mainstream audience, but just via a different channel.

  Khaled Hassan

  Absolutely yes. I completely agree. And I think, to be honest, what the mainstream does, which is really appalling, like, it's, it's, in my view, it's probably the worst thing you can do to Britain right now, because the mainstream, like, if you look at the BBC, for example, you know, the BBC would look at someone like me and just like, Oh, he's got seriously challenging views. Although my mom is a Muslim, you know, I converted to Judaism. My mom is a Muslim. My mom is a Muslim. My brother is a Muslim. My dad died is a Muslim. And the opinions I have are, you know, talked about in Egypt. You know, people look at the UE the UK, and they say, what's happening there? Why are they accepting all those terrorists? What are they actually allowing in the Muslim Brotherhood to essentially take over London? These conversations are had in Cairo. You know, my mom a Muslim with a hijab, she would tell you, there is a serious issue in London, but the BBC would not touch me. You know, they wouldn't go anywhere near me. They once invited me for a discussion and then actually completely ghosted me, decided not to engage in any further conversation. So that's the challenge. That's what I'm talking about. You know, when you look at all this, you realize that it's actually your problem, your problem, not you, not me, but you. When we go and basically lay the blame on someone, it's the mainstream. We need to tell them, this is your problem. And what this is leading to is a rise in, you know, sort of ethno nationalism, and it's most horrific for that. I now get, you know, people telling me, like, Steve laws and stuff, brown scum. You gotta go, brown scum. Yeah, you gotta go, yes. And I tell them, hold on a moment. I'm Jewish. I'm a counter terrorism expert. I've actually deported people out of this country because of their views, because of, you know, their behavior because of their beliefs, when it aligns with terrorism, obviously, you know they're terrorists, or they support terrorism. And you look at this and you realize, Yeah, but you're still brown. You gotta go, that's exactly yes, yeah. I'm married to an English woman, you know, like my kids, my kids don't even speak Arabic, you know,

  Peter McCormack

  because they would refer to your wife as a race traitor. They do. They absolutely do.

  Khaled Hassan

  Well, she's a race traitor, so she needs to go with you as well. Yeah, I've got, I've got these comments all over, but that's I don't The problem is, I blame the mainstream for this. Oh, this is,

  Peter McCormack

  look, there is a reality here. The mainstream media has a survival mechanism, and that is by drifting towards more left wing ideas whereby they want to offend as few people as possible, but it creates other tensions that exist, and now the Overton window has been smashed so open wide by the issue of immigration. Now we're talking about demographic replacement, and by the way, I I think it's okay to discuss it, yes, but we are now enabling the resurgence of a form of racism, which I thought was dying, yes, and it's interesting, because there is, like algorithmic reinforcement now on social media. Yeah, there is a if you don't hold the position similar, say if I did an interview with Steve laws, yeah. And I said, Steve, look, I want to hear your story. Tell me about it. Tell me about your views. Tell me how you achieve this. And if I said, Look, Steve, I disagree. I just disagree with you. I don't think we should be removing people based on the code. Color of their skin. The algorithm will reinforce his views, because his audience wants to hear from him. And then the comment system will be like, you're a race trader, you're a pussy. You're destroying the country. Weak men create times. All these things will come in. It's just like, dude, I'm happy to have the conversation. I just disagree with you. Yes, it's, it's, there's been like a pressure valve, and now it's, has come off Absolutely.

  Khaled Hassan

  And the challenge is, if you look at someone like Steve laws, and if he decides to have his own podcast, I'm not giving him ideas, but you know, let's say he decides to do this, he may do at some point. Yes, like all of us, there are no checks and balances. There is nothing that anyone can do. So the idea of the mainstream, you know that you have the BBC, and if the BBC does anything that is sort of impartial, you know, that is not impartial, or something you know that is, you know, quite obviously biased, or whatever it is you can, you know, complain there is, you know, there is a process that was the idea of the mainstream. It started off as a good idea, you know, like you can actually have a certain process where you go and you know, it's sort of not influenced by the government, not influenced by blah, blah. But it went into a direction now where the BBC refuses to acknowledge Hamas as a terrorist group, and they tell you that this designation is political. Well, terrorism is, in its very nature, political. So that means that the BBC is refusing to accept that there is terrorism.

  Peter McCormack

  Essentially, yes, in that scenario, of course, yeah, completely. I mean, they don't, they don't completely ignore terrorism. I mean, they will report on it, but, like, I agree with what you're saying, but I think I would argue Steve laws doing a podcast is a good thing because his ideas aren't going to go away. People like him aren't going to go away. They have a conversation which is valid to have, that you can disagree with, but publicly. Then his ideas, that's where they can go to die. In that, my big question to someone like Steve Lawrence, I've got four questions. One, what policies do you want to put in place to achieve what you want to do? Two, how are you going to accumulate enough power to make that happen? Yes. Three, how are you going to execute this? And four, how are you going to bind the country by these laws? And this is where the argument crumbles, because politics, you require a big tent. There won't be a big enough tent for his ideas. But even if he did accumulate enough power, executing it would destroy construction the NHS essentially destroy the economy, and so his nationalist revolution would likely lead to internal civil war. You would you would also have to then police ethnicity. And policing ethnicity requires a police state. So you have to become very authoritarian.

  Khaled Hassan

  You become a Nazi. Essentially, you become a Nazi state. And it doesn't work. The problem is the problem I have with actually giving him a podcast or even giving him a platform. And this is my own personal experience. So I come from Egypt, you know, where, basically, Nazism is okay. Like, you know, Hitler is glorified. Like, that's, that's the mainstream view that Hitler was a great guy. You know, I've had, I've had, I've had German friends of mine visit in Cairo, and they often see, you know, they're often asked, like, when they said, Oh, I'm German, or I come from Germany, or whatever it is, and I'm here for a holiday, they always get, oh, Hitler was a great guy, wasn't he? That is literally a serious comment from the overwhelming majority of Egyptians,

  Conor McCormack

  is that just because they hate the Jews, yes, yeah. So the problem is, hold on.

  Unknown Speaker

  So you must be seen as the ultimate traitor in Cairo, 100%

  Khaled Hassan

  and that's the challenge. That's the challenge. You know, when you see someone, actually, when you look at Steve laws, so when he said in his conversation with Andrew gold Goldstein, actually, when he talks about this, he said that he would go through medical records to decide who to basically deport based on ethnicity. So if he does this and he decides to deport every brown person, then that will include me, obviously, and potentially my children, because, you know, they're sort of mixed race, although he can't, you know, they look like their mom, but obviously, if he's going to go through medical records, then that includes DNA, and if he does this, you're going to find people like me who are actually, you know, counter terrorism experts, or whatever it is, who contribute to this country in The same, you know, sort of label as people who are terrorists, and then you're gonna have, you know, like Brown versus white, you know. And it will be a civil war. And if somebody comes to me and says, I'm gonna do poor with you by force, you know. And if Steve laws is magically Prime Minister, I will fight back 100% a

  Peter McCormack

  lot of people would exactly. It's. So it's just, it's not an idea which is would which you can create enough you can't accumulate enough power for it to happen. But I think there are things that you could discuss with Steve law. So for example, zero immigration itself would not if you, if we move to zero immigration, we would maintain the ethnic majority of white people in this country, yes, and but for Steve, He wants everyone to just be gone, which is, it's not executable, yes, it won't be palatable to enough people, and it would leave to such a demonstrably bad economic outcomes that the country will collapse. And what happens when a country collapse, you end up with civil war in fighting crime,

  Khaled Hassan

  essentially, like Syria, Iraq, or, you know, that's that would happen.

  Peter McCormack

  Yes, it's not going to be something like white valor, where everybody's like, it will be essentially, you're right, serious and policing identity were difficult. So, like, yeah, I just ignore that. But here's

  Khaled Hassan

  something I want to ask you now, yeah, if you are arguing that, you know, bad ideas don't die in darkness. They die in the light. You know, if you actually sort of highlight these bad ideas, so why didn't Nazism die in Germany? Why didn't Nazism die in Egypt. Why? Why? Why zoo hatred the norm and mainstream in Egypt, in Iraq, in Syria, in Lebanon, in Yemen. If we suggest this is, this is the, this is the concern I have, if you give someone like Steve laws a platform where he can actually go publicly and say, you know, whatever he says out of every let's assume that out of every 100,000 people in this country, there is going to be two or five who are very desperate. You know, they have, you know, they have a serious sense of grievance, you know, poverty, or whatever it is, and they decide, You know what, yes, this guy is, right? If we get rid of all those folks, we're going to I'm going to be better off.

  Peter McCormack

  This show is brought to you by my lead sponsor, iron, the AI cloud for the next big thing. Iron builds and operates next generation data centers and delivers cutting edge GPU infrastructure, all powered by renewable energy. Now if you need access to scalable GPU clusters or are simply curious about who is powering the future of AI. Check out iron.com to learn more. Which is i r e n.com when you talk about the Middle East, the countries there, where people hate the Jews, and you say Nazism exists and lives these opinions formed out of the conflict between Israel and its neighboring countries.

  Khaled Hassan

  No, it was, it was long before Israel existed. That's the challenge. Nazism, you know, this kind, this sort of pure, you know, unforgiving Jew hatred, existed long before Israel existed. And that's the challenge I have. You know, we live now in 2026 and if we are suggesting that, if you debate bad ideas, bad ideas go away. Then why is communism in the US spreading? Why socialism in the UK still?

  Peter McCormack

  You know like but what is your alternative?

  Khaled Hassan

  My alternative is there needs to be a framework. There needs to be a framework where we say, right, we can discuss pretty much everything except for x, y, z.

  Peter McCormack

  So you think police speech should be policed, and ideas should be policed.

  Khaled Hassan

  They should not be policed, but nothing should be absolute, like we should never have absolute free speech in the sense of, you know, if someone says, I want to deport everyone who's non white, that should be, in my view, are treated as Nazism because that's dangerous, and if this actually spreads, we're gonna have a civil war, as you and I have agreed,

  Peter McCormack

  of course, but it's a slippery like I look, I'm not a free speech absolutist. My my red line is that incitement to violence, and it must be a high bar. I mean, if you tell someone to go and murder somebody, and they do, I think you've incited violence. I don't think that is free speech, but I think I don't believe in the idea of suppressing Steve laws. I just I don't, I don't think it will work,

  Khaled Hassan

  yes, but sometimes we also have to recognize that incitement to violence does not have to be 100% direct. It doesn't have to be like, Go and kill Jews, but if I go to someone and say, you know, the reason you're struggling is because Jews have done X, Y, Z, and we need to get rid of Jews and make sure they leave this country, and then you're gonna have one mania who decides, Okay, I'm going to take things into my own hands and just goes, you know, goes ahead and just, does it. Do you think that's the that's the that's the threat that we're facing? Oh no,

  Peter McCormack

  I understand, I understand the point. But do you think suppressing the speech would stop that person?

  Khaled Hassan

  Yes, and I'll tell you why. If you look at the UEE, if you have someone like Steve laws who says what he says, he is going to be immediately deported or put. In prison for a very long time.

  Peter McCormack

  If he says, What if he says stuff like,

  Khaled Hassan

  I should get rid of every, you know, ground person, or I should get rid of, you know, we should get rid of black people. In this country, we should.

  Peter McCormack

  What if in that country he said we should get rid of every Jew or we should get rid of the Christians or the white people, I believe it's the same. Is it the same time

  Khaled Hassan

  in UAE? Yes, yes, the UAE, I'll tell you something very interesting. Actually, I haven't discussed this before. One of the most prominent former officials in the UAE made an anti semitic tweet. I took this tweet and I shared it with a contact in the UAE government. They made him, they forced him to remove that tweet. He deleted that tweet himself. And I'm telling you, I'm talking about someone who's well known globally, a former official,

  Peter McCormack

  yeah, but as an official, yes, you can enforce that. You can, you can, I guess, you can police speech in some way. As a company, you can say what is acceptable

  Khaled Hassan

  to be No, he's a former official. He's now a civilian. So you know, he's now completely free to see it say whatever he wants. But that's not just him. What I'm talking about is the UE, for example, takes the view that any kind of hatred is unacceptable. So if you say we want to get rid of the Christians, that's unacceptable.

  Peter McCormack

  What? What about blasphemy laws.

  Khaled Hassan

  I don't believe in these. I don't I don't believe in these. And I think this is actually very dangerous once you start going into sort of, you know, oh, Islam is bad, or Judaism is bad. I'm completely fine with anyone saying to me, Look, you're Jewish. I believe that Judaism is a terrible religion. I'd be like, Yeah, fine. Or makes fun of it, that's completely fine.

  Peter McCormack

  Yeah, it feels like withdrawing different red lines in different areas. That's to come with red lines, sure. But with burning the Quran would be okay. But for Steve laws to be saying he would prefer to live in a country, if he was in charge, he would prefer to live in a country where there was no brown people that is a red line. That is, you believe, is that not even covered by the hate speech laws in our country.

  Khaled Hassan

  Anyway, it is. He's actually in serious trouble. He is in serious trouble with the with, you know, with the law.

  Peter McCormack

  So what we know, or you believe, he may be.

  Khaled Hassan

  Because, no, I believe he is. I know he is. I know he is. Yeah, I don't believe he is. I think he mentioned something in a tweet that said, you know, he's basically got, you know, some sort of, I don't know, case, you know, in court or something like this. I'm pretty sure I saw this.

  Peter McCormack

  But the thing is, but does this not stop the discussion regarding demographic replacement? So for example, do you believe it is right to debate the idea that, currently, by 2050 to 2060 white people would be a minority in this country?

  Khaled Hassan

  No, I believe this should be discussed. I discuss it myself. Okay, I'm a brown person, and I discuss it myself for a number of reasons. So I'm not sure if you've seen the Prime Minister recently saying it's, it's British to be diverse, you know, you know, he said it like, and I believe this is complete nonsense, because if you look at, you know, 1950s and 1960s Britain was overwhelmingly white. You know, we're talking about almost 98% or 99% white. So was Britain not British back then? I mean, you know, the generation of my children's great granddad, he fought the Nazis. He was, you know, as British as it gets. You know, an Englishman, and he fought the Nazis. Was he not British when he fought the Nazis in the 1940s when Britain was, you know, overwhelmingly white.

  Peter McCormack

  So what's the line that a Steve laws would have to be able to walk to have that conversation, to say demographic replacement is real by 2050, to 2060, white people may become a minority in the country. He himself doesn't want to see that happen. Yes, because of that, he would have certain opinions about what the country needs to do to ensure that, yes, what is the because we're now policing what are the acceptable things that he can say as a politician? So we would be saying it's acceptable for him to say we need policies to restrict immigration to ensure that white people make a majority. But some people are talking about re immigration as a important topic? Yes, so re immigration is about which policies is it? Is it those who've committed crimes? Is it those who've who don't have a visa, haven't, you know, those who've arrived in the last five years? Where's the line of acceptable policy in this Steve goes to the very end. Steve says, I would just get rid of everybody, but isn't he just drawing a different line on the list of policies that you could do?

  Khaled Hassan

  I think where we draw the line should be, we can discuss policies. We can discuss ideas, but to sort of victimize or target a specific group of people the way he does, that's where he's. Through the line, because I can discuss, you know, the idea of sort of demographic replacement, which is, you know, is a serious concern. When you're looking at again, 1950s almost 99% white, and you look today, and it's almost 75% that's such a huge change in, you know, in a few decades.

  Peter McCormack

  But isn't any number of policies always victimizing a particular group in that okay, we can stop immigration. We can go we could remove foreign criminals from deport them, yes, but if we deport anyone in who arrived in the last five years from another country, aren't we victimizing groups there?

  Khaled Hassan

  So I think the challenge is, if you deport everyone, for example, you know, if you talk about this, it's, it's, in my view, becomes you're picking on certain groups of people, you know, the way he does and the way he does it. It's not like, you know, let's deport people who arrived in this country, you know, over the past five years, he specifically focuses on skin color, which is, specifically, you know, the idea of ethnicity is the main challenge. This is where it crosses the line. So again, I

  Peter McCormack

  actually think it's a bit more nuanced than that, and it's a bit more cultural, because Andrew gold made the example, and I can't remember exactly. It was something like, if you had a grandparent who was 30% Spanish and another one who was like, 40% Swedish. And Steve was like, oh, no, they would be fine. And he was like, Well, why is like, well, you know, culturally, we're very similar, but like, Albanians, who are also white, I would have rid of those. So I think, I think, I think it is all brown people and then specific white cultures. He's picking, but he's like, picking and choosing based on what he like.

  Khaled Hassan

  Well, that's, that's sort of like, you know, the definition of Aryan race, you know, what is the Aryan race? You know? And again, this is where it gets challenging. So you can discuss immigration policies. You can discuss, you know. So, for example, where I live, I don't mention this publicly a lot, but I'm actually pretty much the only, actually, we have two brown people where I live, okay, two, that's it. So, and I have no issues whatsoever, you know, I've seen, I've seen articles in the BBC and elsewhere saying, you know, that basically, the countryside is racist because, you know, the countryside you don't have, I

  Peter McCormack

  don't think it is. I think the cities and towns are racist where there is heart, where there is a high mix of different demographics.

  Khaled Hassan

  I think, you know, the idea of, sort of the balkanization, I have a serious issue with this. And I said, you know, one policy I would suggest, which would actually go a lot of people see it as extreme is to get rid of bubbles, the bubbles and the concentrations where you have policies, yeah, policies like this, I think in Sweden or Denmark, where you look at, if there is one neighborhood here, and this neighborhood is, Let's say, 50% unemployed, if we get a certain kind of crime, like FGM or, you know, domestic abuse against women, and it's above, you know, 10% or 12% or whatever it is, then we have a cultural issue in this bubble, and we need to dismantle this bubble, and that's what they have. Again, I can't remember whether it was Sweden or Denmark. Do you know what

  Peter McCormack

  Milton Friedman said about immigration, it was really interesting. He said, I'll get the dates wrong, but back say in 1925 in America, yes. And anyone listening can correct me on the year, but say it was 1925 we America had pretty much open immigration. Anyone could come. Yeah, anyone was, everyone was happy with it. It's cool. You can kind of no problem at all. And now they have less open immigration. Everyone's angry with it. And he said The difference is now you have the welfare state. He said you can basically choose. You can either have open immigration or a welfare state, but you can't have the two, because the welfare state will attract people from other cultures, countries which doesn't have it towards that, and that's what causes the problem in society, and that immigration can work perfectly well with no welfare state.

  Khaled Hassan

  Yes, I mean, it's, it's, it's a very interesting point of view. But I think the reason immigration has gone really badly in the UK is because, unlike the US, we don't have the Constitution, you know. Like back then, you know, the 1950s you know, someone could move from Egypt and go to, you know, to the US and become an American, you know. And like, I believe in the Constitution now. I'm an American. I believe in the Constitution, you know. I believe in this country, and that's it. You're American, because the Constitution is sort of their own Bible, in a way, in Britain, we decided to do mass immigration and at the very same time reject organized religion. So organized religion became something horrific, you know, like Tony Blair would never mention that he's, you know, a Christian. You know, when he was actually in politics, because people look at him like, oh, you know, this guy goes to church, you know, what is he? You know, also,

  Peter McCormack

  it's not very Christian to go and bomb another country and kill a million people,

  Khaled Hassan

  regardless of what his policies were like. He believes he's a Christian. You know, he would go to church and all that stuff, but he wouldn't. He wouldn't mention it because it's unpopular. Like, you know, people would not elect someone who's religious or someone who believes. In God, you know, they view this as like, you know, like you're against science, you're against, you know, modernity, you're against progressiveness. So we got rid of, basically, the values or the foundations of this country, which is Christianity, you know, national identity. And we did mass immigration, and the people who came to Britain. We did not expect them to sort of sign up for any kind of national identity. We just didn't, yeah, we just didn't like, we didn't like, you can come from Turkey, and you believe, you know, that Britain is horrible. You know, we have Allah Abdel Fattah, who came from Egypt, and he believes that, you know, London should be set on fire, and whatever it is. And he's a British citizen, you know, like he's never been to Britain, in a way, like he's never actually lived in this country. He's never, he never paid tax, he never got married, or never went to school here. You know, his wife is not English or British.

  Peter McCormack

  He's and he's almost certainly costing the state money right now, yes, but

  Khaled Hassan

  he's, he's just been given a passport because his mom was born here when her mom was studying in London, so we just gave his mom a password. Was like, Oh, you've been you're born in London. Here's a password, and now every child you have can have it.

  Peter McCormack

  Yeah? And it's funny, because in other parts of society, run a company, somebody wants to join it. You do an interview. Yeah? That interview, yes, qualification, experience matter, but you're going to make a decision on whether there's a cultural fit as well, and you will reject some like Steve laws would probably get rejected on a lot of large companies because they don't think he's a cultural fit. And in your own home, you get to choose who comes into your house, even if you own a restaurant or a nightclub, you get to reject people. But as a country, we don't seem to have done the same thing.

  Khaled Hassan

  Well, it's, it's, it's absolutely unbelievable, because even Egypt is doing immigration in a better way. So if you are someone, let's say my mom's best friend was actually a Palestinian, and she, you know, pretty much lived her entire life in Egypt. You know, her family moved to Egypt when she was like four, and, you know, she went to school with my mom, you know, I'm talking about, you know, the 70s and all that stuff. And she got Egyptian citizenship in her like, late 50s, after she married an Egyptian man, and she was with him for like, five or 10 years, and then she got it. So, you know, there are things that we need to have, a framework that actually says we have values, and you need to sign up for these values. As someone who went through that process, I can tell you there were no checks whatsoever, like no one goes and checks, you know, does he like believe that Britain is a good country? Does he hate it? Does he, you know, does he

  Peter McCormack

  like who is he? I mean, we literally let people come and live here who hate this country. Yes. We let people come here who want this country to become an Islamic country. Yes. And I think the religious, the religious points really important. I was having a look into this. Like, for example, in Pakistan, you can only become, I'm not sure it's president or prime minister, but if they have both, tell me if I've got this wrong, but you can only do it if you're a Muslim. And they only allow 10 seats for minority religions within the parliament. Yes. Whereas within our country, we allow anyone to come in, anyone with holding any views, anyone holding any views, can run for local office, can run for an MP and can become prime minister. And I find that really interesting, because religion sets the base laws of a country. We are still a Christian country. Our base laws are Christian, and Islamic countries have base laws which are based on is kind of Islamic rules, yes, and they don't. There are contradictions between those laws. And so if you allow a certain religion to grow significantly within a country, you're going to have pressure on changing the laws. So, so for example, cousin marriage would be the obvious example, but it could go more to the extreme with that, and that's what I find really unusual, because there's, there's an incredible amount of history that has shown that with large, dominant, competing religions, That leads to warfare, it leads to violence. Yes, it leads to, I don't know, sectarianism. We've seen it in Northern Ireland between Catholics and Protestants. I mean, Lebanon is an absolute shit show. Yeah? It just

  Khaled Hassan

  doesn't, I mean, the Pope said it works. He said Lebanon is a great example of multiculturalism when he actually visits. And that's the Pope, yeah. And this really shows you how terrible things are.

  Peter McCormack

  Maybe the West, there's a small window bubble where these things did work. Maybe there was a period of time in Lebanon when it did work, and there's a period of time the UK when it did work. But ultimately, the trajectory is to sectarianism. And look, I've been to Lebanon and it's not in good shape. Yeah. Yes. I mean, the government's stolen all the money. The infrastructure doesn't work. They don't have power. Yes, and

  Khaled Hassan

  it's one of the most beautiful countries you can ever it's

  Peter McCormack

  beautiful country, beautiful women, oh yes, amazing food and just cool people. Yes, yes. The Lebanese are incredible. But there's also a large and accepted terrorist organization. Yes, and there is significant amounts of poverty outside of Beirut, like just terrible amounts of poverty. And then there are, like, those 1020 billionaires who stole all the money.

  Khaled Hassan

  Yes, yes, it's, it's the challenge is, I think we're doing everything the wrong way in Britain, yeah, although we actually should know better, because, you know, Britain has a proud history. You know, the Empire one of the most successful sort of, I think Britain was actually one of the most successful experiments in human in human history, if you ask me, yeah, you know, extremely stable, like, you know, if you look at British history, you're going to find that before Brexit, whether you know what, regardless of you know, how anyone feels about Brexit, it did sort of start a process of instability, you know, at least political instability. But before Brexit, we were extremely stable, you know, like, you know, this country did not have wars, this country did not have invasions. You know, didn't have, you know, sort of any major you know, event or development, like the Middle East, for example. But the thing is, wherever you look, you're going to find that we have decided to opt for, or go for the most destructive way, or the most destructive mindset. So for example, if you look at the entire concept of religion, we have decided that it's racist to ask about religion or sort of wonder if someone is doing something because it's part of the religion. We decided that beliefs do not matter. I'm going to treat you as my equal in every way

  Peter McCormack

  a conversation can be racist, just because it examines

  Khaled Hassan

  Yes, exactly. Yes, exactly. So if you say, you know, oh, did so, I have a really serious question. For example, in during, you know, the first wave of protests after the Hamas attack in Israel, October 7, we had a man who is linked to Hezbollah, which is again designated terrorist organization. Now it hadn't been, you know, back then, it wasn't. And he stood in the middle of London and he said, jihad, Allahu Akbar, jihad, you know, jihad. And then the CPS, the Crown Prosecution Service, basically, and the police said that they had specialist officers who examined the footage of this man calling for jihad, and they decided that he was not calling for jihad. He was calling for internal strife or internal struggle. Because Jihad can be two things. Like, look, you know you're sort of, you want to have sex, so they bottled it, and you have sort of the jihad within yourself to resist that urge to have sex? Sure, but they bottled it, right? But who is the specialist officer? They said we had specialist officers who examined this footage and decided that this man was not calling for terrorism. I'm going to assume he was Muslim. That's the that's the key question. Was he Muslim? Oh, you don't know. No, I don't know. Okay, so that's the question, because they did not reveal it. That's the challenge.

  Peter McCormack

  But it could also just be somebody who, you know, who's weak or nervous or works in a police force that has been accused being institutionally racist. It's just like, I don't want to cause

  Khaled Hassan

  this and blood. My own personal experience, and I'm going to tell you about my own personal experience because I've worked in different institutions, in the private sector, and also, you know, with, you know, different government organizations, the people responsible for viewing footage in Arabic, footage that is linked to, you know, again, you know, Islam and all that stuff, are usually people who come from a Muslim background, yes, because they understand or an Arabic speaking background, exactly. Yeah. So if you work, you know, for counter terrorism, police and your job is to view footage. You know, in Arabic, it makes sense to hire people like me,

  Peter McCormack

  but yes, but you're an anomaly, as you've converted.

  Khaled Hassan

  Yes, exactly. So that I had this, I had this in many occasions where I would be working with a theme of Arabic speakers, you know, some from Iraq, some from Syria, some from, you know, Egypt, whatever. And we would view a case where someone is saying something anti semitic, but everyone sitting around the table who do not recognize Israel's right to exist, and they're the ones who are meant to keep us safe, they decide this is not anti semitic, but because I'm the only Arabic speaking Jew I can like it's anti semitic.

  Peter McCormack

  Okay, so you're saying within our within our institutions, yes, we have people who are deciding whether something is criminal, who hold a bias to defend, yes, their own religion. Exactly. Because they are anti semitic themselves,

  Khaled Hassan

  because they harbor these views themselves, right? That is precisely the challenge we're facing. Okay, that's a big problem. It's, it's a massive problem. And the problem is no one is willing to face

  Peter McCormack

  this, and it's funny, because they will arrest a granny for praying outside an abortion clinic,

  Khaled Hassan

  yes, and no one is willing to even, to even to even, to even, to even go into this territory because it's extremely challenging. I think Rupert Lowe would be yes, but he's, you know, he's, he's single seat again, yes.

  Peter McCormack

  Why do you think that this has happened at the political level?

  Khaled Hassan

  I'm going to tell you something that I did a study. I think this is an excellent question. I read a study a few years ago. Why do women like when they see a woman getting, you know, assaulted, sexually assaulted or raped, they decide to blame the woman. You go like, Oh well, you know, you were a bit sort of casual

  Peter McCormack

  with this person. They do, they blame them. There's a percentage you blame.

  Khaled Hassan

  Oh yes. Oh absolutely yes. There is. There is a huge percentage of women, at least in the Middle East, who blame women. There is definitely a percentage of women also, you know, in the West, who do, but it's a much smaller percentage. And the study went through this and basically came to the conclusion that it makes you feel safe, because if I do the same exactly, if I can say to you know, if a woman says to a woman, you were raped because you were dressed in a certain way, that makes me feel safe. If I don't dress like you, I'm going to be safe. This is essentially the mindset we have here. You know, there are issues that we have decided not to even discuss because it makes us feel safe. It makes us feel like those people are not bad people.

  Peter McCormack

  See, I think there's a couple of things going on myself. I have a deep distrust of government, and it's I'm losing every strand of trust I have very quickly. I'm very I see government very clearly. Now, my friend Michael malice, who was sat there, he said to me, once you see government as competing gangs fighting for territory, it's very easy to see the games they play. Yes, and our all our politicians operate under every single politician, doesn't matter which party you're from, has the same two primary objectives. Primary objective is to win power, and the second objective is to defend your power. And what happens is the incentives are such that when you have control of creating the rules and the laws, yes, and we have the ability, and that's not just our rights level, but that's at a business level or a personal level. When you have the ability to do that and you have control of the creation of money, you will naturally create laws and rules and distribute money to the special interest groups that will vote for you. Yes, that just naturally happens, and it's why politics is so corrosive right now. And so if the Muslim vote tends to trend towards voting for the Labor Party, you're going to give special privileges to those which can be welfare, which can be blasphemy laws, which can be the allowance of more mosques. You're going to give all the religious freedom to that group to ensure that group keeps voting for you, because there are special interests for you, yes, and so that creates that there are perverse incentives there. But secondly, it creates a flywheel, because what happens is the accumulation of power starts to happen within that community, and that view that community will then vote for that community. For that community, so you get a flywheel that expands the protection of that religion whilst degrading the protection of, say, Christianity or other religions. And it just that's, that's how, that's how we get these perverse incentives. Is like, I see it very clearly. But the solutions to this at a political level, a lot of people in this country have got the stomach for it. Doesn't mean we shouldn't look at it, but they don't have the stomach for it.

  Khaled Hassan

  Yes, it's, I completely agree with you. And the challenge is because also, if you, if you've been to Westminster and sort of, you know, went to Parliament and dealt with parliamentarians and, you know, state officials, you're going to sort of realize that there is something else, actually a lot worse, going on there. It's essentially a game of survival. So if you go and you meet an official, let's say a government minister, and this government minister has his own staff, and he's meeting you because he thinks, oh, you know, Khaled is, you know, he's an expert on the Middle East. He knows blah, blah, his staff will start to play a game of survival with you. So they will try to basically gatekeep to make sure that, you know, this guy doesn't come into their territory and sort of, you know, gets given a job, and you end up with survival games. Across all levels. So the staff of the MPs, the staff of the government ministers, everyone is looking out for themselves, because it's these are extremely rare opportunities, you know, to be working with a state official. So it's not about who's best for the country, or who can actually offer the best sort of ideas or solutions or what? No, no, it's not that. It's about who can survive here. So you know, everyone gets gatekeeps and the officials themselves and MPs do the same, and it's essentially a game of survival. So I always say in Westminster, it's almost 90% trying to backstab others or avoid being backstabbed by others, and 10% actually doing the job, yeah, which is essentially ends up with a governor with a country that no one is running this country. That's the challenge. No one is running this country.

  Peter McCormack

  No, this is the deep state. Liz truss talks about, it's not, it's, it's

  Khaled Hassan

  not even the deep state, because the deep state suggests, you know, that there is some sort of, you know, intention to impose, you know, certain views, or whatever it is, but we're just heading in one direction that no one knows any different. Like, you know, everyone knows that this is how we've been doing things for the past 10 years, and we're going to continue doing things the same way for the next 10 or 20 years, and it's going to be, you know, somebody else's problem when I'm done, basically.

  Peter McCormack

  Okay, so what do you do about it? I think what you

  Khaled Hassan

  do about this is you dismantle the entire system. You seriously, dismantle seriously, yeah, exactly, yeah. What you need to do is you need someone to say, look, Parliament has the authority. If we have a minister who decides that Allah abd Fattah needs to go. He goes, he just writes a little piece of paper. And this guy goes, it's as simple as this, but then so we have to get rid of the ECHR. 100% 100% it has no role to play in the future of Britain.

  Peter McCormack

  Because it was quite funny, because a lot of people say, Why don't we just kick this guy out? Why don't we just not let him in? It was actually just, we couldn't Yes exactly. It's just procedural, right? He just, he had the right. He applied Yes. And what we're actually saying is we need someone to have the ability to quite easily go We don't want him in our country. Yes, he's never lived here, never paid tax. Yes, you know, he's hold views which are racist, homophobic, misogynistic, yes, anti British. Anti British. Day you can't come. Why couldn't he stay in Egypt? Was it dangerous for him? I mean, he was jailed in Egypt, but like but he was pardoned. But was he founded on the condition he went to another country? No, he could. He could have stayed. Would he be would he have been under any risk there,

  Khaled Hassan

  potentially, yes, but it's not my problem. The problem is, you know, when people look at this, it's just like, look, there are so many people who are being persecuted globally. You know, we can try to help in certain cases, you know, but these certain cases also need to be mutually beneficial, yeah. So if we're going to rescue, for example, you know, a Christian guy who's being murdered, you know, by terrorists in Afghanistan, then this guy, you know, should be, at least, sort of, you know, a good contribution to this country, at least. You know, there are certain basics. But if there are 10 people, you know, sort of struggling, and we have a place for one person, we cannot decide we're going to have to help those 10 people, the case of is really exceptional, because you have the way I imagine it. Let's imagine this room, and you've got the entire British state in this room. And Allah Fattah walks into the room. There is a passport for him on the table. He picks it up. All of them are sort of fighting, you know, with each other and shouting and, you know, and saying, We don't want you in this room, whatever it is. And he just walks in, gets the passport and goes home. That's exactly what happened, because we have a law that basically gave him the right to have this passport, even without any checks.

  Unknown Speaker

  We are so dysfunctional as a government, exactly.

  Khaled Hassan

  So the entire government, the prime minister himself, is sat in a room, and we don't want him, and he just walks in, takes the passport and goes, Cheers, guys, yeah, that is literally what happened, and no one can do anything about this. Where do I sign up for my welfare? Yes. However, we need to also mention something else, that the Home Secretary can actually revoke his citizenship at this stage.

  Peter McCormack

  Is that true? Yes. But does it has the authority. Can it only happen once he's here? So could they have rejected him before he got here?

  Khaled Hassan

  I don't think so. No, legally, as far as I know, again, I'm not a legal expert, but as far as I know, you know, working in these cases, I'm gonna actually mention another example. But regardless of whatever it is, she can now, she has the authority to reject him, you know, to revoke his citizenship, because he's basically, you know, an issue for us. You know, that's the simplest way when it comes to national security and whatever. But they will never do this, because this will be a diplomatic and international embarrassment that is somehow unprecedented. There has never been a country that has been yelling and screaming. Think about a man saying he's a great human rights activist. Give him to us. You know, come on, release him. You dictator, just sort of losing it. And, you know, getting really serious, and saying it's a top priority, and then says, Oh, we're actually going to give him back.

  Peter McCormack

  Well, but it's so embarrassing for the state, because I think within hours, everyone had searched this guy said, look, and it's and when Tony and not Tony Blair, when Keir Starmer says, Oh, well, I wasn't aware this was a failure, like of my advisors, like, Come on. Have you said? Have you sacked those advisors?

  Khaled Hassan

  The Egyptians have said explicitly, and I wrote this, the Egyptians have they came? They told it, they came up with the receipts. Yeah, they told it, that's all bullshit. Yes, but here's the challenge, so I'm gonna mention another case that's very relevant to this. When I was, you know, during you know, Priti Patel's time as Home Secretary, she granted asylum to a man who came to the UK, and he is one of the most well known broadcasters and YouTubers for the Muslim Brotherhood. This guy, you know, has his photos with Hamas, you know, the leadership of Hamas, blah, blah. So I prepared the dossier of, you know, sort of criminal offenses under the counter terrorism law, and I sent the entire dossier to Priti Patel, and I said, Look, here are the offenses this guy committed which basically disqualify him from even gaining entry to Britain. She looked at the dossier. Well, her office did. She responded to me, but I'm, you know, I'm not sure whether she even looked at this. I know now that she did afterwards, but I got the response that because of, due to sort of privacy laws that we have. Basically, she cannot discuss the case with me, and that's sort of an off the shelf response that she gave, oh, we appreciate blah, blah. We reject anti semitism. We are blah. You know, it's the same template, and I'm going to tell you why it's the same template that the home office uses. That was 2019 this guy, you know, fast forward, actually, 2021 sorry, fast forward to October 7, and this guy says, After the Hamas terrorist attack, that this is the happiest day of his life. He's never been happier. He's so thrilled, especially because Hamas took hostages, and that means that Israel will not be able to respond in Gaza. So I wrote to, you know, again, the home office and all of my contacts there, and I said, What are you playing at? I warned you two years ago that this guy is a terrorist, and now you see this. Then he got deported eventually, you know, in November 20 they were able to, eventually, yes, exactly. The Home Secretary was able to do it after two years of giving this guy, granting him a kind of visa where he worked from London with the rest of the Muslim Brotherhood and established a media base for the Muslim Brotherhood from London for two years now, forget about this. I wrote to the Home Secretary recently, a couple of months ago, about someone else, I got the same response. We reject blah blah and hatred in its old forms, blah blah. It's the same template that has been used, but due to privacy laws, we cannot discuss this person's case with you. So we have given those people a privilege and a right. Although they're not British, they are harmful to this country. They hate this country, they despise this country, and they're actually linked to terrorists, and anyone can see it, and we can't even discuss the case.

  Peter McCormack

  so if you were writing the new immigration laws for this country, how would you structure them? I would regards to reducing the threat of Islam in this country.

  Khaled Hassan

  I would make ministers personally responsible for every case they sign off. Okay, so if you are a minister, you have a case, and this case is Allah Abu fatas case you. You make the decision, does he go in? Does he come in, or do we leave him? Basically, if you sign off,

  Peter McCormack

  would you prevent people coming to the country from specific countries?

  Khaled Hassan

  Yes, 100% not entirely. I would say there are cases again, where, you know, if you look at Egypt, for example, if you look at, you know, Afghanistan, we have people in Afghanistan that worked with, you know, the British army. You know people who are serious, people who really believe in, you know, the values of this country. Again, it's rare. It's not, you know, it's it's not, it's not, you know, the common thing, but

  Peter McCormack

  that would require, probably temporary citizenship and a citizen citizenship test and ensuring that person is yes,

  Khaled Hassan

  and again, the minister is sign off personally. So I would, I would designate different countries into, you know, risk categories, yes. You know exactly yes. So if someone wants to come from Germany, you know, it's not, it's not a big deal. Is it? Someone wants to come from the US, in most cases, it's not a big deal. But if someone wants to come from Pakistan, someone wants to come from Egypt, if someone wants to come from Yemen, then this requires, you know, again, an increased level of scrutiny of investigations that actually meets the risk level.

  Peter McCormack

  How big a problem do we have with the more extreme elements of Islam in this country, the extremists who may be plotting or preparing acts of terrorism within this country, is it still a significant and large problem?

  Khaled Hassan

  100% Yeah, I think, you know, even if you read, you know, the assessments that we get almost every year now from our security services, you know, Islamist extremism is still the main thing, because still the main threat

  Peter McCormack

  we monitor something is this something ridiculous, like 40,000 people?

  Khaled Hassan

  Yeah, those are actually the people on the list. You know, of basically being watched, being monitored, almost 24/7 but

  Peter McCormack

  if you're on the list, you're almost already at a point where you've done something, which means you are really you. You've done something which How do I put this? I'm trying to put it in the best way possible. If you've been flagged, yes, you probably don't identify with the values of this country,

  Khaled Hassan

  most likely, yes. So basically, you've either sort of looked up how to make a bomb, yeah? And you're an extremist, or you go to a mosque and you listen to a certain preacher who tells you ISIS is amazing, basically.

  Peter McCormack

  And so those people we should just be deporting

  Khaled Hassan

  already, 100% yes. Now there is another issue, actually, again, talking about this, if you look at the mosques, how mosques responded to the October 7 attack in Israel, you're going to find that it was the norm that you would see, you know, an imam in the mosque, you know, giving the Friday prayer sermon, and he would say, you know, God sort of help the Palestinian warriors fighting for the nation, the ummah. So those are people who are essentially praying for Hamas to win and destroy Israel, basically.

  Peter McCormack

  And that itself is extremism, and those mosques perhaps should be closed 100%

  Khaled Hassan

  we don't do this again. We don't do this in Britain.

  Unknown Speaker

  And that is fear of

  Khaled Hassan

  I think it's number one. They are afraid. Security Services are really frightened and terrified of the prospect that those people would go under the ground. Okay? So if you close a mosque, you know the sort of extremist elements would go completely under the ground, which means they are untouchable. We can't really find them, which means more terrorist attacks. So let them operate. We can listen in. We can keep an eye on them and see what's happening. But again, do you agree with that as No, I don't. There will be bloodshed at some point. Because what if the extremism becomes mainstream, which it has within the Muslim community? Sadly, because if you look at the number of mosques who actually condemned terrorism, that's an issue. It's very, very few. I can't name any, to be honest. So that's the challenge, because you're allowing this to be like, Okay, we're letting you do your thing. Then they feel like, well, it's just okay, isn't it?

  Peter McCormack

  Why did you reject Islam? Did you reject Islam itself before you converted? Or did you come like, what was your process?

  Khaled Hassan

  So it's very interesting, actually, because I was never truly a Muslim. I was never truly a practicing Muslim. I, you know, I grew up, you know, again, middle class family, yes, my mom and dad prayed, you know, they're Muslim, whatever. And you know, it's a certain point when I was a child, I fasted for Ramadan and all that stuff. But as I was, you know, sort of, you know, in my teenage years, I just decided I just don't want to do this, you know, I want a more liberal life. You know, I was sort of spending my time with Americans a lot, you know, drinking, you know, had a girlfriend, so I just felt like. There's a lot more to life. Yes, exactly. There's a lot more to life than sort of you know, you're gonna go to hell. If you have a drink, you're gonna go to hell. If you masturbate, you're gonna go to hell if you have sex. I don't want that, you know, that was my decision. Again, I respect, you know, Muslims like the Emiratis, you know, moderate Muslims. I have nothing against them, and I actually believe that Islam is the most misunderstood religion, but it is mostly misunderstood by its own followers.

  Unknown Speaker

  Interesting, this is my

  Khaled Hassan

  view of Islam. They focus on the stuff that is extremely political, because over the past 70 years, or whatever, they decided to make it a political movement, a pan ago, based political movement, rather than just a religion like Christianity, developed and everything else. So that's, you know, that was, that was, and I fell in love in Judaism, you know, once I realized, well, I'm not really a Muslim anymore. I'm not calling myself a Muslim, you know, I started learning about Christianity, Judaism, and I just felt Judaism really is where my heart is, in a way. So yeah,

  Peter McCormack

  and did you face? What challenges have you faced converting to Judaism because you don't look like a traditional Jew?

  Khaled Hassan

  It's actually, it's brilliant, because if you go to Israel, I'm not sure if you've been to, not been, No, I've not. Yes, there is no such thing as someone who looks like a traditional Jew. No, I know what you mean. Yes, I know what you mean. I'm not saying what you're saying is wrong. But if

  Peter McCormack

  I had to, I've never met you, and I had to guess your religion, I'd probably pick that you were a Muslim before.

  Khaled Hassan

  It's fascinating, because, you know, the Jewish world itself is really very interesting. You're going to see a lot of people who look very much like me. I have, you know, a few friends of mine, you know, born Jewish everything, but they're mezgohi Jews, Mahi Jews, which means, you know, Jews who come from Egypt, who come from Iraq, you know. And they look, you know, not different to me at all. But I think in the UK, we're used to, you know, the more sort of Ashkenazi Jews, you know, the in the traditional sense.

  Unknown Speaker

  But I think it's, it's, I mean, the question is,

  Khaled Hassan

  I think the challenges of converting to Judaism is number one. Judaism is essentially banned in Egypt. And by banned, I mean, there are mosques. We have really serious historic mosques, you know, because Egypt is, you know, has one of the oldest Jewish communities globally. There's only now around, I think six Jews left in Egypt. But the challenges are, it's virtually impossible. It is seen even the slightest interest in Judaism or even reading a Jewish novel, you know, a novel written by a Jew that could be seen as an indication of espionage. You could be seen as a Mossad agent or an agent through the Jews, or whatever it is. So it's virtually impossible, basically. And then when you convert, you know, you become again this, you know, Ultimate Creator of you know Islam. You know Muslim. I always get this comment, you sold out Islam. It's like, what do you mean? I sold it like, do you mean? Do you think people get paid to leave Islam, although, actually there is a concept in Islam where you can pay people to become Muslim. What? Yeah, so zaka, which is the charity that you give in Islam, it can be given in certain cases. So it can be given to someone who's a widow, for example, and you know, to orphans, to whatever it is. And giving people who just converted to Islam or are considering converting to Islam, is legitimate. It's a legitimate way to spend you money to convert people to Islam.

  Peter McCormack

  Basically, would you face any significant risks if you went back to Egypt now? Yeah, absolutely, can you basically not

  Khaled Hassan

  go no, I can. You can't go back. Yeah. And especially now after, you know, October 7 as well, and everything else, and, you know, sort of, you know, working with, you know, Israeli decision makers, meeting Israeli decision makers, it's, it's a big no, yeah.

  Peter McCormack

  Where has this left you? Philosophically with regards to religion? And I say that as a somebody raised Catholic, went to church as a kid, have rejected it as an adult, don't I? When I go to church, I don't feel what people feel there. I have no faith. I just, I'm wondering, What? What it? What is it I'm missing here? Yes, I don't get it. I don't have that spiritual part to me, yes. So I asked you, like, what's this done for you? Philosophically, with regards to a world where we have multiple religions, yes, that are always in conflict with each other?

  Khaled Hassan

  Yes, I think generally I feel I believe in God, but sometimes I feel very resentful of God, because if you believe in religion, especially Judaism or even Islam, you believe that God, you know, he sees and he knows everything, and sometimes and he can stop everything if he wants to. You know, in a way. A but obviously that will be against, you know, sort of the rules of this world, because we have our own, you know, free will. That's, you know, one of the challenges. But I feel really resentful of God sometimes when I see things happening that maybe should not be happening, you know, like, or, you know, things that I cannot really understand, like people getting bombed, you know, people getting essentially murdered, going to synagogue, especially children, you know, because that's a very serious issue. Sometimes I feel very resentful of God. But I noticed this recently, one of the days when I was really feeling down. I just, you know, I was sort of talking to God and saying, you know, I really despise you. And that was the sort of extreme position I went to. But I still sort of, when you talk to someone, you actually believe they exist. Then I realized, but I still believed that God existed. You know, I might despise him on occasions or resent him on occasions, but I still believe he exists.

  Peter McCormack

  If God could interject on these things, yes, once, then what? Then? Surely, God should interject on every questionable, moral, violent, unfair scenario. So what is the meaning of life with a God that can interject is the meaning of life not? Is it not a test? Is it not? Have we not always understood it is a test?

  Khaled Hassan

  Well, this is, this is the challenge I have, you know, what is the point of the test? That is the question, you know, like, what is the point of the test? And I think this is the limits of questioning. You know, in Judaism and in Islam, by the way,

  Peter McCormack

  do you believe in judgment after death?

  Khaled Hassan

  It's, I don't really believe in it. I mean, in Judaism, we don't really believe that, you know, this is, this is what we strive towards, in a way, you know, like you're going to find most Jews, they don't really talk about the afterlife. In Islam, everything is about the afterlife. You're being told that, you know, the afterlife is sort of, you know, this eternity, but you know, life itself is almost like five minutes

  Peter McCormack

  in Islam. So what do Jewish people believe?

  Khaled Hassan

  So in Judaism, you know, we don't we also, one of the most beautiful things about Judaism, actually, and you know, I think this is relevant, is I can look at, you know, for example, my father in law, who, you know, passed away recently, and he was Christian, like had a Christian background, Christian European, and I don't believe he's going to hell. You know that's we don't believe in that. In Judaism, we don't believe, Oh, he's going to hell. But in Islam, yes, if someone was even a decent person in life, but he wasn't a Muslim, he's going

  Peter McCormack

  to end up in hell. So is there no hell with we don't really

  Khaled Hassan

  focus on it, that's the thing. But these don't really we the idea is there is, yes, it's mentioned in the in the Tanakh, I think it's mentioned once or twice. You know, the idea of Jahannam, which is in Arabic, actually the term in Hebrew is also very similar. Again, that's, you know, hell, essentially, but it's mentioned extremely rarely. And again, you know, Judaism, it's not the focus. While, when you look at Islam, it is the main focus. I was thinking, for example, of something else recently in Islam, there is the concept of the literal translation is torture in the grave. And we are taught, you know, like as even children, that if you are not a good Muslim, you're going to be tortured in your grave. And that, for me, is one of the most horrific things to teach a child.

  Peter McCormack

  So if you have a misinterpretation of the Quran and you believe you will be tortured in the grave, your misinterpretation could lead you to doing violent things.

  Khaled Hassan

  Yes, it's trauma. Yes, absolutely. If you tell a child, for example, that if you do something that is not good, you know, judged by God as not good, and you're dead. You're going to be tortured in the grave by this great, massive serpent, you know, snake, and you're going to spend basically almost eternity being tortured in the grave and being resurrected and tortured and killed and then resurrected and tortured and killed. Which leads people to think, well, what can I do, essentially, to be a good Muslim.

  Peter McCormack

  But if there is a hell in Judaism, yes, there will be a judgment that decides whether you end in it, hell again.

  Khaled Hassan

  The concept of hell, you know, heaven is really not, you know, like, I said, we don't really go to a Christian and say you're going to end up in hell. You know, some do we. It's extremely rare. It really is extremely rare. I haven't seen any Jew do this, to be honest. Like, you know, it's, it's the focus is this life, you know, lead this life, live this life, you know, as a decent person, and that's all that matters. Yeah. And there is also another concept, you know, that we have laws for people who are not Jewish, that they can lead these lives as meaningfully as, you know, as righteously as a Jew, you know. So we don't have this discrimination that because you're not a Jew, you're going to really suffer, you know, it doesn't exist. I find this concept of, you know, again, this is where, I think, you know, Islam is misunderstood, even by its own followers, that they just focus incessantly over this idea of torture and pain and suffering and hell, you know, and I don't think if you look at the Quran, there is mention of this, obviously, you know, quite a bit. But there is also mercy and justice, and, you know, other concepts that they can focus on if they choose to do so, but most don't.

  Peter McCormack

  So that comes down to scholars and interpretations.

  Unknown Speaker

  Yes, absolutely, yes, yes. I have

  Peter McCormack

  a level of skepticism with regards to God, but I have a despite my skepticism, I have a larger fear of judgment. Yes, I'm right now. I'm currently just started reading Dante's Inferno. Have you read it? Yes, yes. Heavy, yes. And somebody said to me, you're having a spiritual awakening. And I was like, What do you mean? They said, Because you are starting to question who you are on this planet and the things you do, the impact on others, yes, and that is a good thing, yes, but it is a spiritual journey.

  Khaled Hassan

  Yeah, 100% you know, you know the saying there are no atheists in the trenches. You know, it's, I think that sort of applies to me. Because if you come from the Middle East and you have seen things that most people in Britain would never see, like I have seen people getting killed, you know, in the Middle East, I have seen people getting, you know, I mean killed as in slaughtering. You know, I've had friends of mine shot. I had friends, you know, I've seen things that most you know, even if you see like a 90 year old in Britain, you know, they don't really, most of them don't really get to see a lot of the stuff that we see in the Middle East. And I think that gives you sort of a decision, you know, you have to believe in something, otherwise you end up going mad, in a way.

  Unknown Speaker

  But I think also it's, it's,

  Khaled Hassan

  it's very interesting, because I believe that faith is also why you do things that you would not do otherwise if you didn't have faith. Like now, you see, you know, when people talk about, are we going to go to war against Russia? And you see a lot of people saying, I wouldn't go to war for Britain now, part of it is because people no longer have faith.

  Unknown Speaker

  Yeah, that draw, that draw to having a faith is, I think it's

  Peter McCormack

  an interesting one, because you, I think you can get lost in life. Yes, there's like a purpose, but you meant to believe you're my dad. Work hard, get a job and but in front of us are temptations everywhere, and even micro temptations, which I know, like, for example, with a podcast like this. Yes, the temptations are well, sponsorship, income, it's good. I should get clicks. Well, how do I get clicks? I can get I could get Steve laws on here, yes, and I'd get two, 300,000 views and such and such. But am I doing it because I want to talk to Steve laws, or am I doing it because it's controversial? Yes, Contra, like negative, negativity and controversy sells in my world. Well, if I am of faith, would I do that? Yes, would I make a better choice? Yes, it's that's my draw to it is like 47 now, not sure I always make the best choices. Like I rant about government. I rant about politicians and their perverse incentives and why the government is so bad, and I'm like, well, am I? Am I the same? I have perverse incentives. I follow them sometimes. Why should I expect better from them than of myself?

  Khaled Hassan

  I think this is also something else that you end up realizing with experience. Yeah, you sort of, we all talk about, you know, what we would do, how differently I would do things. But once you are in there, once you're in Westminster, once you're meeting MPs, once you're, you know, you're in that cycle, you actually end up pretty much consumed by the same stuff. You end up becoming another person who's just in there with the same mindset, with the same everything, same survival, yes, instinct, yes, because you end up realizing that everyone has got a role to play. And everyone's got something to serve, you know, like it's, I'm offering this in exchange for my position. I'm doing this in exchange for a vote. And if you don't offer whatever is being offered by everyone else around you're just out. And that's the challenge, and this is where faith comes in, are you actually willing to make decisions that are, you know, in the immediate and potentially long term, really bad for you when it comes to, you know, making money, when it comes to, you know, having your position, when it comes to all that stuff,

  Peter McCormack

  it's cowardly, really, isn't it? It's a cowardice. It is it? Is it talks about that in the, I mean, the third, the second chapter of Dante's Inferno. Yes, talks about the cowards.

  Khaled Hassan

  Yes, yes. So here is something else that I have come to know, personally and really experience. You're going to realize that you know now a lot of people don't talk about Elon Musk, and whether you know he's doing something right or wrong, who? Because a lot of people don't talk about Elon Musk. Elon Musk, yes. Sorry, yes, no, it's all right. And a lot of people don't talk, you know, within Trump's administration, they don't criticize the president, they don't do something that he wouldn't like. And a lot of NGOs that want access to the President and his staff and his administration would basically issue statements supporting the President and his administration, even if they believe, they believe that they're doing something that's completely useless, and that's because, well, you know, I get money from my donors because I have access to the President. If I don't have access to the President, I'm not going to get money from my donors. So even if I believe he's doing something wrong, I'm still going to praise him. I'm still going to say this is amazing.

  Peter McCormack

  It's the, it's the JD Vance dilemma. Yes, if JD Vance wants to become the president, at what point can he criticize Trump? Because it may be necessary for him to criticize Trump, yes, to win votes.

  Khaled Hassan

  It's, it's, I think it's the same in our politics now, because also, we are facing a serious challenge that they don't face in the UAE. For example, in the UAE, they have continuity, you know, they know who's going to be in power in 10 years. And Saudi Arabia, they have a crown prince today who's almost 37 he's, you know, 3039 he's, you know, a few years older than me, and we know he's going to be king in 10 years, 20 years, you know he's going to be that the same vision is going to be there. Basically we don't. So in the West, we're very busy fighting over access to politicians. And, you know, the NGOs are fighting over donations and donors and whatever it is. So everyone is fighting for now. What happens now? What do I get now, over the next year, short term? Exactly, yeah, no one cares about well, what about you kids and mine?

  Peter McCormack

  I mean, the we have this such we have such a large surface area for the state that it's so easy now to grift and corrupted. Yes, everything we've seen with the daycare centers in America, that is just because the surface area of the state is so big, yes, and it's so easy to corrupt it.

  Khaled Hassan

  Well, the problem is also we really fail where it matters. Like, you know, the welfare state was, in my view, essentially created to care for the most vulnerable. Yes, like, if you have someone who's seriously disabled, no one in Britain would tell you, no, just let them die. No one would say that. But we are failing those people, because now we are, you know, now we identify ADHD as a disability. Now we identify whatever it is, as you know, some other we have expanded the definition of disability to include so many people who were not otherwise identified as disabled now, so somebody who's got, you know, who's slightly, you know, autistic, slightly autistic, would be treated as someone who's, you know, an amputee. You know, there are serious levels and serious issues, and they go through the same process,

  Peter McCormack

  and it's unaffordable, exactly, and it means we will have less funding for education, yes, and then education itself becomes corrupted, yes, because education is dictated by party, yes, Whereas I assume in Saudi UAE, education is directed towards creating the best people possible to build the country. Yes, rather than build the party, yes, we have corrupted the university system. We've corrupted the NHS. Everything has been corrupted by politics. The police was corrupted by politics.

  Khaled Hassan

  Yes, yes. I mean, the NHS is a really massive mess. Because when you look at the NHS, the NHS has a very specific issue with extremism, by the way, okay, because the NHS gets a lot so during covid, for example, we got almost between two to 3000 doctors from Egypt. Yeah. Have any of them been vetted when it comes to security, when it comes to terrorism, when it comes to extremism, almost no.

  Peter McCormack

  Oh, and by the way, on that point, what hole does that leave in the Egyptian health service? That's another thing. I mean, we always talk this. It's a really interesting thing where we talk about, well, we need immigration because we need nurses from Nigeria and doctors from Egypt. Just like, what privilege Do you think we have? It's like when I talk about inflation, I'm an asset holder, right? Yes, I benefit from inflation. I'm against inflation, but I benefit from it. Yes, for me to win through inflation, somebody has to lose. Yes, I have greater purchase power. Other people have lesser purchasing power. I did nothing for that. Yes, I did nothing. So what privilege is it that we think we have, that we should just be taking healthcare workers from other countries and not answering the question, well, what? What does that do to their health service?

  Khaled Hassan

  That's very true, actually, because that has been happening in Egypt, and it seriously drained, you know, healthcare system in Egypt, it seriously drained. It it is now talked about in Egypt that Egyptian doctors are leaving because they're not getting paid well, so they end up leaving, but also because there is demand. The UK wants Egyptian doctors. And there is also another issue when it comes to the quality of our services. If someone is being educated in Egypt, where, you know, the education system is really dreadful, they're not the same level as someone who's, you know, been educated in London. And when you sort of inject two or 3000 doctors in the chest during a few months, then who's going to monitor the quality of the service?

  Peter McCormack

  So is democracy itself a false god?

  Khaled Hassan

  I think democracy now in that format where we have it is really terrible. It's not working. It's just not working. It just isn't

  Peter McCormack

  I mean, in the world that I've been in for the last 10 years, there are many people who hate democracy. It is the tyranny of the well, you say the tyranny of the majority. But with this Labor Party, it wasn't even a majority of the country, yes, but it creates a tyranny that exists. Corrupts everything it touches. It's disgusting. But what is the alternative? Do we return to a monarchy?

  Khaled Hassan

  I mean, in my view, to be honest, a monarchy worked really well. You know, in the UAE, it worked really well, you know, in different places. But obviously there is no guarantee you could get a prince who's completely mad and decides, you know, I'm gonna exactly, but yeah, we had Cromwell, we can cut their head off. Yes, well, it's, I think Britain is really an exceptional case in many ways, because we still have a monarchy. We still have, you know, sort of some tradition, but we don't really know who we are anymore.

  Peter McCormack

  Well, we spent centuries proving what works. Now we're proving what doesn't.

  Khaled Hassan

  Yes, precisely. And I really fear for my children's future, because now, when you look at when you look at the NHS, you know my daughter, I don't talk about this publicly. I haven't actually talked about this publicly at all. She's a child. She had major life changing surgery at the age of two, and we were on an NHS list for a year, and then she had a doctor who operated on her, and he basically did so many things that were wrong, even, you know, administrating the pain after the massive surgery that was horrific. This guy operated on almost 800 children, and the cases go from horrifically damaging the child to, you know, sort of slightly damaging, you know, slightly, you know, misconduct, basically. And he's a Muslim, I'm not saying that this is relevant, but when he was being investigated, he just fled the country. He headed to the UE.

  Peter McCormack

  How's she doing now? Is she okay?

  Khaled Hassan

  Yeah, she's not bad, yes. But obviously, you know, you look at this and you realize, well, you know, she was on a list waiting for a whole year.

  Peter McCormack

  I think about, I think about my children a lot, sorry, I think about my children a lot in this country. I was listening to, I think, his interview with Dominic Cummings the other day that he did with the spectator, and he was talking about a reason a lot of people are leaving this country is it's not for them. It's they've got to get their children out. Yes, where is the opportunity? Yes, I feel very similar. Very, very similar at the moment. It's like. Like, what is this country? What does it mean? What does it stand for? Yes, what is the opportunity? What is the future? And all I see is a government which gets worse every time. Yes, I have no faith in any party anymore. I think we are stupid. I think we breed stupidity. I think government will continue to get in debt. And the thing about the debt and the inflation that bothers me is we all know. We all know that the more debt this country has, the more we're stealing from the future of our yes children, yes. And if that is the case, then we are cowards, because we as adults, and I just said, I'm just doing the collective we but the collective we are saying, I, as an adult, want stuff now. My children have to pay that for that in the future. Yes, what cowards are we? We are meant to as adults create a better future for our children. Yes, the world they're inheriting from us is not better, you know, significantly worse. But I don't believe that's the case in other countries.

  Khaled Hassan

  No, no. I mean, if you go to Saudi Arabia, you're going to see I was thinking about this actually today, and I wanted to mention this. I think Britain now, as I would describe it, is potentially the place where aspirations go to die. Oh, man, this is, this is, this is this is in my view, yeah, you know, because you look at this and you realize, like they were discussing a recent policy that they want, they suggested that anyone who passes their theory test driving test will have to wait for at least six months because they cannot possibly be ready in a couple of weeks.

  Peter McCormack

  But is that really very practical? Is that bullshit? Is it basically because they just haven't got

  Khaled Hassan

  enough testers? But the point is, why are you sort of putting things along the way to keep, you know, to hold people back? And you look at Saudi Arabia, and they're allowing women to drive they're sort of, you know, if you look at the Saudis, every single Saudi I've ever spoken to, and I've ever spoken to, and I've spoken to people who are really well connected in Riyadh, there is this vibe. There is this energy that the country is changing. You know, we're allowing now theaters to open. We're allowing restaurants to, you know, accept anyone. Everyone is getting dressed in a different way. Yes, we are still, you know, we still have our tradition, but there's going to be alcohol being served soon. You know, there's going to be, you know, cinemas soon,

  Peter McCormack

  because it's attracting Westerners from shit holes like this. People are going, I don't want to be here anymore. And there's a lot of people living with cope, but there's people going, I don't want to live here anymore. Everything is expensive, yes, but everything's getting worse

  Khaled Hassan

  100% this is this. I think this is my main challenge with Britain. When I came to Britain, 2016 I could go to a dentist, you know, an NHS dentist, and pay around 60 pounds or whatever it is. And, you know, have my teeth looked at whatever it is. Now that NHS dentist does not exist for my three year old and my five year old, it just doesn't exist. There are no more dentists on the NHS, which means I have to pay privately. When I arrived in Britain, you know, around 20, 22,018 I was getting paid around 30 to $35,000 pounds a year. My most recent job in the private sector, I was paid 40 so in almost eight years, my salary hasn't really shifted. Your purchasing power has gone down as well, exactly. And you know, I used to be able to go and, you know, get an NHS dentist. Now I don't, but I also have two kids who need a private dentist?

  Peter McCormack

  We squeeze Yes, squeeze more Yes. And with in that, there's wage compression, because the minimum wage is approaching, I think, 26,000 pound a year now the minimum wage, yes, yeah, those are on 3035 they're not seeing wage growth. Yes, to seeing everything get more expensive. Yes, services degrade. If you go out for dinner, the food isn't as good. Yes, and that is a sign of a collapse of an empire, or the collapse of a nation. And, well, what does that mean? In 10 years, have I got a teenage daughter, you know, and a young son. He's just in his early 20s. Where's it going to be in 10 years? Yes, where's the compression? I don't believe things are getting better, and I don't believe anyone has a solution to get them better. So if they're not going to get better, what am I condemning? What are we condemning our children for? In this country is saying you should expect and accept less than we have because we want stuff now.

  Khaled Hassan

  Yes, it's terrifying when you think about it, is suicidal, because when you think about it like, I mean, I'm talking about 2016 when I arrived in Britain. And now, you know, it's 2026 So it's 10 years, and in 10 years, Britain has changed on a scale that I don't think I would have ever imagined. You know, like things vanished, like services that were being provided by the government, like an NHS dentist not free because you still paid. So, you know, sort of almost, you know, subsidized, let's say, and now it doesn't exist for my children.

  Peter McCormack

  So what won't exist in 10 more years?

  Khaled Hassan

  That's the key question. If the NHS dentist is just vanished, basically for people, then what won't exist in 10 years?

  Peter McCormack

  And where's all the money going? Because that's what I want to Where's the fucking money going. Where's the money going?

  Khaled Hassan

  It's, it's, I think, to be honest, the people of this country will regret voting labor. You know, whoever voted for? Oh, they were already there, yes, but they will seriously regret this for many, many years.

  Peter McCormack

  It's when they revolt. That's what I wonder. When will they revolt? When will collectively, people say this is just not unacceptable. And do you know what? I think Steve laws is a revolt, and think Tommy Robinson is a revolt. I think Zach Polanski is a revolt. I think in every but it's

  Khaled Hassan

  in the wrong direction. I mean, somebody like Zach is it's terrifying that he's actually gaining popularity now, and he's sort of

  Peter McCormack

  but it's expected, because actually, what is he complaining about?

  Khaled Hassan

  Same things that we are complaining about, almost, yeah.

  Peter McCormack

  He is complaining about the collapse of services, the increase in taxes, the wealth disparity. And that wealth disparity that comes from inflation, yes, it comes from it just comes from inflation. And so he sees the same problems that I see. Yes, we just have different solutions. I say, freedom and liberty. Burn down the government. He says, make government bigger. Tax the Rich, who will release but? But it's a scary it's sometimes I'm like, Is it as bad as I think, is it worse than I see? Is it better? I don't think it's better. So what do we do?

  Khaled Hassan

  It's dreadful, because there is so much resentment out there. I'm someone who's really resentful of many things. For example, I lived in this country for many years as someone who did not have a British passport. So whenever I went, you know, on holiday with my family and came back to Britain, I would be taken through a different queue. You know, my children, my babies, my wife would have to sort of hold them on her own, including my child who had the medical issue. And I would go in a separate queue. But then I look at Allah abduct and he is he has nothing in this country. He has a red carpet, and he the prime minister of this country, publicly welcomed him to this country, and there is serious resentment. And obviously he's going to have access to the NHS now, obviously is going to have access to other public services now.

  Unknown Speaker

  But the thing is, right,

  Peter McCormack

  what is, what is the political message that restores this country to greatness, that has the biggest enough tent, because reformer every the demise of the Conservatives and the Labor Party is a reflection on everything we've spoken about. Yes, and the rise of reform and green are a reflection of that Yes. But nobody is dealing with wants to deal with the hardest, toughest things, because perhaps they're scared. Perhaps the country doesn't have the stomach for it. Yes, and it's almost like things haven't got shit enough yet. Yes, that's the scare. It's like, How bad did Argentina have to get to get Malay? How bad did How bad did El Salvador have to get to get bukele, yes, you know, how bad does the UK have to get to get that person who says, No more, no more. We've got to fix these big fundamental issues in the country. And I don't know,

  Khaled Hassan

  but it's also very scary, because when we get to that point where somebody says no more, things have to change, what are they going to change and who will be affected? Because let's look at it at, you know, sort of the welfare state. If somebody decides enough is enough, yeah, you're going to have the people who are seriously vulnerable, yes, they're disabled, and everyone else seriously affected.

  Unknown Speaker

  Yes. I mean, look,

  Peter McCormack

  we can, we can trickle into we can. We can have this trickle of decay where things just get a little bit shitter, 1% shit or 2% shitter every year. Or we can, we can all collectively agree we've got to take a haircut here. And William clusen the SDP came in. He said, Look, the MP should stand up and say, we got a problem here as a country. We all have to contribute. We will have to become part of it. Donna Dominic Cummings said about it. He said, there's a bunch of people in this country. They have to take one for the team now, yeah, we need to get the best people in government. Yes. And I think if there was a collective agreement, MPs, we're we're going to take a 30% haircut. Yeah, you're not going to get 100 grand as an MP you're getting 70 grand. We're all doing that. We're taking a big cup, because this is what the country needs. And we are going to have to raise tax on some of you, and we're going to cut taxes for some of you more. And the when they talk about the wealthiest with the broader shoulder, shouldered a bit more of the blame. I believe if you came to them with a realistic plan of civic restoration, it's like we're not just taxing you more to piss more money away on quangos and dei and bullshit. It's actually to restore the country. I think people would buy it

  Khaled Hassan

  100% I think we need a national vision or dream to get behind. And that's what Saudi Arabia has. So Saudi Arabia has vision 2030, which is basically, look, they said we are dependent, like almost 70 or 80% dependent on oil. If everyone stops buying oil, that's it. We're bankrupt.

  Peter McCormack

  Basically, we need tourism. Are normal. We need tourism. We need sport. Yeah, you've seen it. So they went mental, and they've executed. Yes, they've they've taken over golf, boxing, football.

  Khaled Hassan

  That's the scary thing. We've also decided that. I mean, I was talking about this in actually, I made a video about this. If you look at British values as defined by the government, you're going to have, you know, you're going to see democracy, rule of law, mutual respect, tolerance for people of different beliefs. And the last one, I can't remember even it's all a bit there. It's all, none of it. All of it is passive, yeah. So you sit on the sofa and you believe in democracy. You believe in the rule of law, so don't commit crime, basically, yeah, be kind to everybody. Be kind to everyone. But no one tells you that innovation is a British value, yeah, Britain the Britain invented the railway system that Britain invented, you know, the radar that Britain invented, you know the jet engine that Britain invented the radio, the TV, you know, the World Wide Web. This is British, and we want that kind of innovation. Can you be innovative? Can you actually do something, you know, inspirational? No one tells you that. And in my view, those and they actually teach kids that stuff in school. But like,

  Peter McCormack

  do they I mean, I somebody sent me a photo the other day, and it was in a school, and they had a huge board up, and it was all about why labor are great, all about the Labor Party, what labor stands for. I'm like, why are we indoctrinating politics? The only politics we should have this school is political debate. This is this party that what they stand for. What should they do? Yes, and have the courage to put in teachers who will say, No, you have to debate every party, and you have to respect every party. Apart from that, we shouldn't be indoctrinated. And we should be saying the values are, education, hard work, innovation. Yes, we should. We should be the fact that we spend more money on debt, interest and education makes me want to vomit, yes. Where take all that fucking money away put into education? Because the future like we should have an NHS for the kids. We should have NHS for the kids. We should have opportunity for the kids. They should be able to leave school, get a job and be able to buy a home and have kids otherwise, if they cannot, if they cannot deliver on that path, some are going to leave Yes, some are going to kill themselves. Some of them just can be depressed. Some are going to live off the stage like, What a fuck are we doing?

  Khaled Hassan

  It's terrifying. I mean, when you look at this, you I think that thing that scares me most, for example. And I mean, I exchanged messages with Kemi, Kevin for a while and try to get her in here. She's, she's, she's great, you know, she's great when it comes to policies. She's quite thoughtful, all that stuff. But I told her, I can't, I can't, like, I just don't see this working, because you don't have new blood. You don't have new blood in the sense of, everything is done the same way. So basically, the person who's, you know, Chief of Staff for Kemi is Rachel McClean, for example. You know, no disrespect to anyone, but she is a failed MP. She didn't win in the previous election. And we're recycling the same kind of process. We're recycling the same kind of process that produces the same kind of ideas.

  Peter McCormack

  See, we need to surgically find the best people in this country. Yes, the best thing.

  Khaled Hassan

  But we also need to get out of that sort of Westminster mindset. We need to get out of like, look, a failed MP is not going to give you brilliant new ideas. We need to get someone from the private sector and go like, right? What would you do now? How much money did you make? Out there, and how did you make it and, like, sort of, you know, how do you actually come up with a process that gets you new ideas, bold ideas, something really different, and that the tragic thing is, and I think this is where people are going to get really disappointed, even reform is doing things the same way.

  Peter McCormack

  Of course, they are. That's why I've lost all faith in reform. Dominic Cummings put it really well. It's like, Look, they've got to win the next election.

  Khaled Hassan

  They will win, yes, I think they will probably, unless there's an alliance from the left.

  Peter McCormack

  But they need, yeah, perhaps, but they need to find, like, 500 MPs to run right? They've already struggled on their local councils or the councilors, but we're not seeing a pace of change. And like Cummins said, we should be out there do a public recruitment program. We want the best people in this country to come and work for this party. We don't want old failed MPs, although Danny Krueger seems all right, but we don't we want new blood. Yes, if you understand health, come and come here. If you understand finance, come here. If you create a business like come you've got to take one for the team. You're going to get paid a shitty salary compared to what you get on the private sector, but you're going to help restore this country. We want the best country. We want the best people. Let's have a big public recruitment program and just get the best people. Get rid of all these dickheads and why all the kids? I mean, I look, I look across the political spectrum, particularly the Labor Party. I look at the front picture. I look at Keir Starmer, Ed Miller, band Yvette Cooper, Bridget Phillipson, Angela, right? Well, she's not front bench anymore. David Lammy, these people are terrible. These are terrible humans. They are terrible at their job. Well, are they terrible humans, or does the system just allow average, bland people

  Khaled Hassan

  only allows them. That's, that's my serious challenge. Anyone who's slightly bold does not fit,

  Peter McCormack

  and then you look in the back, I mean, who's that guy? Is it Richard Bergen, or everything? The guy is a more like a moral of epic proportions. And these fit like, I think, I think we're on the same page, we have to completely and utterly change this, because if we don't, we will not have a country that's worthy of our children. And it's not. It's like the rest of the world is laughing at us. Yes, we are humiliating ourselves in public.

  Khaled Hassan

  I mean, the fact that we were humiliated by Egypt. Egypt is a country that is now virtually, you know, almost going to declare bankruptcy. You know you're talking about a country that is, it didn't have us need in.

  Unknown Speaker

  Was it last year, 50%

  Khaled Hassan

  reduction in the currency? Oh, more now, yes, absolutely, yes, absolutely. It's, it's, it's, it's one of the worst situations you can possibly imagine. It's becoming a fail statement, yes, and the fact that they're outsmarting Keir Starmer is and they're laughing at Keir Starmer, and they actually and, I mean, look, the thing is, I believe we have to start with one thing, parliamentary sovereignty. We need to make sure that people in Parliament and the prime minister can actually make decisions. Yes. We need to get rid of the checks and balances that we try to create to make sure, you know, that the government does not step over and, you know, sort of do things their own way. And we don't have institutions anymore. We need to dismantle this completely. It's going to be scary. We have to admit nobody, if you look at this, you know, for example. So we have, again, if you go to the BBC, we have an arrangement where the government does not tell the BBC what to do, you know, but they're paid by the taxpayer, and all that stuff. But it's not working, and we have to get rid of that stuff. We have to make sure that whoever we elect is going to be the decision maker. And if we decide, if Britain collectively decides, look, we're going to have a sovereign wealth fund, which is something I think we should have agreed 100% Baby Drill exactly before going to, I mean, you it's, I paid this month just for energy, 360 pounds. And it's a small house. It's a small house with one bathroom, and, you know, two adults and two little kids. It's because

  Peter McCormack

  we have Ed Miliband. We need, we need Catherine Porter in there.

  Khaled Hassan

  It just cannot be. It just cannot be that I'm almost paying almost 400 pounds. How many hundreds of pounds do I have to pay just to be able to turn on the lights and the heating?

  Peter McCormack

  Imagine the tax the biggest tax break they could give is lower energy prices. Everyone would have more money exactly into the economy?

  Unknown Speaker

  Yes, we can go on forever. I think we can listen.

  Peter McCormack

  It's like, I say, a game with a blank piece of paper today. Yes, and it was at a time when I'm reflecting a lot. And I think the funny thing is you could sit anybody down in that seat for a conversation. You may be on Islam somebody on health. Yeah, I could get a sportsman in. I could get any if anyone sat there and they felt they had free rein to say whatever they want, we'd have a very similar conversation. I imagine I could sit there with a Marxist. And the only point we start. Arguing is on the solutions, I think the symptoms, we would say the same. Think this country's fed up. I think we've got, I think we've got collective depression in this country because the hope has been destroyed. But for me, if we can collectively agree there is a problem and it's not going to be solved by left versus right narratives, then perhaps, you know, something can happen. I hope so. I really hope so. It's great to meet you, man, thank you for having

  Unknown Speaker

  me, and thank you to everyone for listening. We'll see you soon. You.