#142 - Andrew Gold: The Culture War is a Trap

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Andrew Gold joins me to discuss how incentives are driving extremism, distrust, and cultural breakdown in the UK. From YouTube algorithms and purity spirals to immigration, economics, feminism, AI, and debt, we explore why honest debate is collapsing and why every political movement now frames itself as an existential last stand.

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• Transcript

  Peter McCormack

  Andrew, Hi, Hello. How's it going? I'm good. How are you? Yeah, good. I always like talking to someone who does this similar weird job to understand their experiences. And I was gonna ask you, but you started telling me this beforehand. How do you balance what you want to do with what you think is right to do for a show like this, it's

  Andrew Gold

  it's really hard. And I think it's a question a lot of YouTubers are asking themselves, you are I am every YouTuber I know asks themselves this. Because the way that YouTube works, I think a lot of people don't realize this, is that I think if your video does well with a certain audience, YouTube shows your next video to that audience and so on. I used to be really interested in cults. That was what I first got into, so Scientology and Hasidic Jews and Mormons and so on, and people who had defected from those cults. But I found this was back when I had, like, zero subscribers. I found, over time, that the Scientology ones did better than if I talked about, say, yeah, the FLDS, the fundamentalist Latter Day Saints Church. And so then you find yourself in a bit of a position where you're going, Okay, well, I want to just do lots of diverse interviews, but I don't, I don't want to continue having no subscribers, and the Scientology stuff did well, so I would just do more Scientology stuff. And then you do more and more, and then you find yourself in a position where you've done Scientology every time for the last 50 videos. And if you get like 200,000 views for it, suddenly you have a career. You're able to do a job you love. But if you go back to doing Mormons, people are not as interested anymore. And you get 10,000 instead or 5000 instead of 200 it's a huge difference. So that is really hard. I got to a point where I went, you know what? This is, earning good revenue, and it was really easy to do. I did it at home. I talked about Scientology. I became the internet's expert on Scientology. Somehow, I was the biggest channel for Scientology related news in the world. Some I don't know how that happened, but it did, and so I stopped doing it at its peak. I went for a phase of maybe a few months of I talked about the Royals and Meghan Markle, I was interested. At first, genuinely interested. After a few months, I was like, I can't do this anymore. So that's when I quit that channel and started again with heretics. Two years ago, that was the only way to do that, a fresh channel, Yeah, completely fresh, zero subscribers, because I knew that putting out what I want to talk about, which was the culture wars at that time, would have died on my old channel, and it waste of time, and I would have found myself going, oh, man, I better go back to the Scientology videos. The only way was to cut it dead and start a new channel. But yeah, you get to a point where, okay, it's been two years now. I've made, I don't know how many, but let's say two or 300 videos. All of them have been about politics and the culture wars. And I think all of us like to think of ourselves as people who are interested in many different things. And so I might want to talk about football one week. I might want to talk about I can't. I'm thinking of YouTube topics, makeup, probably not. But, you know, so some people say, do you do two videos for the audience that your audience likes, and then one just for you? The problem with that is that third one, if it does badly with your audience, is going to screw up the next ones. So I think it's really hard. You. I think you just have to make sure that you're always honest with your audience, honest with yourself, otherwise you're just going to go mad. What do you do? What do you how do you do this?

  Peter McCormack

  We just make whatever we want to make, yeah, which doesn't help us all the time, because the range of performance on the shows is quite wild. But I do, I do find, like I get sucked into the games of the algorithms, but I compare it to smoking, because, like when you have a cigarette afterwards, I always feel terrible. I haven't had cigarette in years, bear mind, but I used to always have a cigarette feel terrible, and I kind of feel terrible, yeah, but I also think about it quite philosophically, about are we part of the problem? Is the algorithm for. Us to either cover things we don't want to cover, or forcing people to have opinions they wouldn't normally have. So your Steve laws interview was really interesting when I watched it, and I went through a similar experience with Carl Benjamin, where I got annihilated in the comments, and I didn't want to change my views and my opinions, but I felt the algorithm was drawing me to do that, and I just, I don't know, been questioning a lot recently.

  Andrew Gold

  It's a really hard one that because the algorithm, I mean, when we talk about the algorithm, I think what we're really talking about is human nature. I think some people talk about the algorithm as this kind of mystical thing, and really it's just, you've set up a business. You've set up sort of your this is my channel, my TV channel, or whatever it is, and a certain number of people like what you're talking about. They follow you. Those are the people then that YouTube will show your next video to, and they measure how well that video is going to do and how much they're going to push it based on how much the people who came to your business or your TV channel liked it, if they liked it or not. So human nature sort of pushes us into these bubbles as YouTubers, the same way as it does to the audience people watching right now, their own friendship groups and so on, so that we end up in a place where we are on Twitter, we're seeing people who have very extreme views all the time, and it's very hard to remove ourselves from that and actually consider how unusual that is in real life. Yeah, because in real life, I am an absolute Nazi. I'm the most far right, and I'm quite sure you are as well, person that most people have ever encountered. They won't speak to us. They will not have us on TV channels and so on. And yet, Twitter, I'm a milk toast, just pathetic on the fence, always on the fence, which is what I'm told I am, by people who are anonymous Twitter handles. And you go, Well, hang on, we've put our faces out here. We're now unemployable by the mainstream because of doing that. And yet, you guys are calling us cowards and on the fence and so on, because we have views that are different from yours. There will always be purity spirals. I experienced this before I experienced this, just talking about Meghan Markle, right? I did videos about Meghan Markle, and then some people come along and they say, you know, Megan wasn't really pregnant. She faked it. She's a it was all fake pregnancy bump. There's a million videos out there about this bump being fake? Oh, here's the moment she leant down and it was you could hear something popped and it wasn't real and so on. And I just said, Well, I'm not, I don't think that's probably, I think I agree with a lot of the criticism of Meghan Markle. I'm not convinced that she faked her pregnancy, though. That just seems a bit far fetched for me. You get slaughtered, absolutely slaughtered. The trans stuff. Again, many of us were saying this stuff about trans when it wasn't okay to say it. People forget that now. It feels milquetoast or whatever. But 234, years ago, when we were all saying like, hey, this thing that's taken over the world right now, it's been weird. It's bit weird, and it's completely wrong and insane and very cultish. That's what led me onto it. But there is then a group of people known as the gender critical ultras. It's a kind of purity spiral. Many of them are well meaning, good people, but some of them, again, it's anonymous accounts, and they take you down, and they if because you don't want to say, I hate that man in a dress, you know, I wouldn't let that man in a dress go to Gen SPECT gender conference or something like that. And that's not all of them, of course, but some of them are like that, and so you're not pure enough for them in their in their purity spiral. And that's inevitably that was going to happen with immigration, race and these discussions that we have, we are never going to be pure enough for those people. And they're very loud, they're very organized, and who knows? The reality is, we don't know how much they are a very small subculture online that we've gotten used to and most people would be appalled by, or if they are actually making a dent in the culture right now, I don't think there's a very good way of knowing,

  Peter McCormack

  yeah, and it makes making decisions really hard with this, like we contemplating even nuking what we're doing now, in that when you do An interview with somebody, you're bringing in a lot of their audience as well. And if you don't agree with them, you just get annihilated for not agreeing with them. But when we just make a show about what we want to talk about, the only people are watching. The people actually like us, which is a lot smaller, but you get to be a bit more honest, and you don't feel like a twat at the end of the day and I worry like something like Steve laws. I watched that, and sure, there's a community of people who agree with Steve laws and agree with agree with his view in the world and what should happen to the UK. I think if you think through it critically, all his ideas collapse and when I was when I was watching the interview, I was thinking, well, politics, you need a big tent, right? If you get a winner, if you're going to election, you need a big tent. And there's so many of these subgroups who want the world my way. Yeah, these are my set of views. The world must be this way. How do you have a cohesive society with so many fractured, small groups who. Who won't, who've got, like, this determined view of how the world should be, and there's no compromise. And so I think something like Steve laws is there will never, he'll never be able to create enough or accumulate enough political power for what he wants happening in the world to happen. And so what do we do with that?

  Andrew Gold

  Well, he might say, I'm moving the Overton window. So something Tommy Robinson might say as well. And again, a funny thing, because as much as I said, I said earlier, you and I are considered like Nazis or whatever. I don't think we really are, but Tommy Robinson is, and he's the kind of person that just being friends with him is enough to get you alienated, pushed, excommunicated from your group. He is seen as some sort of Nazi. And it's so funny to see that the Steve laws is of this world view him as a, again, this sort of, you know, he said himself is multicultural, lover of Zionism and various minorities and so on. But Nigel Farage, for example, I don't think will associate himself with Tommy. Reform, won't but Tommy serves a purpose to them, and I'm sure Tommy's aware of that as well, by moving the Overton Window about what's acceptable to speak about, so people might see what Steve has said and go like, Oh gosh no. But the next time they hear Rupert Lowe speak, they might go, Well, that seems a lot more reasonable, or Carl Benjamin, that seems a lot more reasonable. I mean, I'm really happy I got to do that video. It's one of my favorite interviews I've ever done, because I grew up on Louis Theroux. I grew up on everybody speaking to the extremes, and as much as he is to the right of me, anyone I said to you earlier, Jeremy Corbyn or Owen Jones, if I had a restaurant and they came in, they'd be welcome to a nice dinner. I'd sit and speak to them. I'd hope they have a good time, even James O'Brien, I don't think he'd be able to have a good time. I think he'd see me and just be immediately argumentative, which Owen Jones as well, is also the case. Owen Jones, I've had some interactions with recently, okay, and I've actually found him really disappointing. And it's actually been, it's been sad, because I knew who Owen Jones was, of course, for years, a strong leftist activist, and I thought he must have a little bit more to him, and he'd be maybe a little bit less ad hominem and a little bit less bad faith. And he's come in and attacked me a few times on my tweets, and every time I've come back, I said, Hello, Owen Nice to meet. Here's what I think. What do you think about that? And every time he comes back with name calling, no, because you're this, because you're that. And I thought, wow, this guy is, I think he's in his mid 40s now, he's been in the political arena now for decades. You would think he might have learned to have a little bit of Well, as you, as you said, a big tent. I think he's the, maybe the Steve laws of the left, yeah, you might say it was really disappointing. I hoped he might engage and we could have a conversation. Maybe he'd come on heretics. Maybe we'd talk things through and go, Oh, that's really interesting. This is why we disagree about this and that. But no interest at all.

  Peter McCormack

  Yeah, he's he's a tough one. I had a pretty sure I had an interaction with him years ago because he was he wrote an article criticizing Bitcoin and got a small engagement. Then he blocked me. I'm blocked by all these people now, so I don't get any conversation out of them at all. I think that's fair enough to block you, though I'd rather he blocked me. He probably will after this, and because then at least it's like he doesn't want to engage with me. I think that's a bit pathetic, but fine. But if he's coming for you and just shouting slogans at you, I'm blocked by him. James O'Brien, Piers, Morgan, like most of them, I've got the full collection.

  Andrew Gold

  They didn't need to block because there's the notification trick, which I've learned recently. You just, you just set your notifications. I guess they don't want you seeing their tweets. I don't really mind about anyone seeing my tweets. I have notifications. I can only see notifications about people who I follow. Yeah, so I can choose. And it's changed my life. It was, you know, so much horrible hate. And now it's like, I get two notifications a day.

  Peter McCormack

  How was that? Steve Lawson, did you expect it to blow up like it did

  Andrew Gold

  a little bit? Yeah. I mean, okay, so I say that I I enjoyed doing it. I'm happy I did it when I was watching it back. There were moments, as they always are with me. Why thought back? Man, yeah, I know, but I never watch Eddie back. Had to watch it back because I died to help with the editing and all of that. So I had to, you know, and we don't take stuff out. And there were bits where I thought this doesn't actually represent what I think the way it might be taken. And I thought, I'm going to get a lot of shit for this, but at the same time, it's not fair for me to take that out, and so we just went with it. But I think, yeah, there's a difficult one as well. I think on that side, there's no room for doubt. He has no doubt. That's, you know, I asked him, Is there any room in your mind for doubt? No. To me that, I said to him, that's a sign of an idea. Look, I've seen that with cults time and time and time again. Do you have any doubt that Lord Xenu exists? I would ask a Scientologist none zero. And I think if you show any doubt or in your own thinking, if you try to think in real time, if you try and change your views, or anything like that, you're seen by some of these people as a grifter or so on. I think. Think the reason that you and I have these big audiences is because most people do like this. They like that you're able to think in real time and maybe correct yourself and so on. But the loud vocal minority, you know, the ones who comment vociferously, it's a lot, and it was a lot until I changed that notifications thing. I mean, it's also it's such a strange way for them to go about it, because those who actually engaged in good faith with me and said, Listen, I like what you did. I don't agree with this idea that we should deport people who've been here for family and their families for hundreds of years. Of course not. However, have you considered what you said about this or that gets you thinking that really does so I've definitely, I guess how you felt after Carl? Benjamin, well, after that conversation, there are points where I've looked at myself going, oh, you know what? Yeah, I suppose it is fair to say that there is an English ethnicity. I suppose they do feel like they're being replaced. And it was, it was, it was actually Carl, who speaks in a very sensible manner, that did enable me to think that way. But I think what's sad about that, and the reason I have referred to a very fringe aspect of them as the woke right? It's the same as the woke left in that they don't seem to want to actually convince and change minds. I'm talking about a fringe aspect. I'm not talking about Carl or Colin Tomlinson or any talking about a fringe aspect online who are very vocal, and they just shout Jewish this, all right, Goldstein Do, do, do. They're not looking to change minds. In fact, they're looking to push you further away from them so that they can feel more pure in their cult.

  Peter McCormack

  Well, what was quite interesting was even seeing Carl having to take a few spears at him from the Steve Rawls crowd. And there's always going to be someone further to the right, more extreme, further to the right. And that's why I say you kind of need to think with a big 10, because otherwise you just you go in this kind of like doom loop of extremism. Someone's got more extreme ideas, and I just don't think society will ever operate on that level. I think with Steve Lawrence, most of it, I I just tried to think through what he was saying he wanted critically. Okay, so how do you accumulate enough power to get what you want? How do you execute it? How do you ensure it's maintained, because you may lose power afterwards, and what is, what is the, what is the output? And I ended up at a place where you have a police state, because you have to police ethnicity at

  Andrew Gold

  the borders too, doctors looking at your medical records to judge who's fit to stay.

  Peter McCormack

  Yeah, and a lot of your industry here will completely crash and crumble. So you're going to enter a kind of economic collapse. So the whole idea is just unworkable.

  Andrew Gold

  That was that's a more logical way to go at it. And if I could do it again, I would probably do it that way. I wouldn't

  Peter McCormack

  have done it live. This is this is me because I text you. This is me, watching it me and comma debating it, thinking about it, rewinding it, like seeing the arguments again, which you don't have the luxury of in the moment.

  Andrew Gold

  That's the thing. And I've never been punishing of those who have said, there was that Sam Harris moment where he said something like, you know, he'd rather liars get in. He doesn't care about lying as long as it stops Trump getting in. I've misquoted that, but it like people were so unforgiving that Sam Harris was never allowed to even be spoken about again. And it's just mad because this is Sam speaking in the moment live. We're now used to that in podcasts, and we expect people to have these fully formulated ideas and to speak perfectly in the moment. Back in the day, everything was scripted, you know, you'd write these speeches. That's how you would hear communication from political commentators. Now we expect these people in a debate. And I think the issue for me was I probably and I learned a lot. I mean, I'm used to arguing with the woke left. I grew up around the left and the woke left, and the kind of elitist, you know, went to a posh school, I went to university, so I those are, I know them so I can argue with them all day. And I know all of their points. I know their post modernist progressive points. I I know the cultishness of it. I've not had debates with people on the right, and that was really interesting. But it's a learning experience. It's very hard, though, to debate someone who's looking you dead in the eye and basically saying we're not basically is saying you and your family out and you've got to leave the you know, we've been in hundreds of years. It's, it's, it's hard to keep your call and go, Okay, well, how would this happen logically? And that's, that's the thing.

  Peter McCormack

  So yeah, and there's, there's also a situation where you've opened the door for a conversation with Steve laws, which has opened a door for other people who agree with him to talk. They're much more interested in that conversation than people who maybe disagree short with him. And that woke right point comes in because the woke left have this position whereby if you disagree with they'll shout you down, scream at you, maybe kill you. And a similar thing is happening, because you got even criticized for making the point work, right? But you get shouted into silence, and there's like, they'll say things like, oh, Steve, you know Steve is in the extreme one or weak man. Create bad times. They. They have all these different talking points to make you think, well, am I in the wrong? Yeah, yeah, you do

  Andrew Gold

  for a moment, but then when you can't turn those notifications off, then the people who do get in touch with you go, bloody hell, that guy was even stupider than I thought. Yeah, I've had several. I mean, I won't name them, but people we know who are creators going, I mean, one in particular said I was actually relieved to watch how bad he was, because I thought he might have had some good points and good talking points on Twitter, but he didn't. So it's really hard again. That's what we're coming back to every time. Is, to what extent is it a small minority with vocal online? Yeah, and what is, what does the real world think if you showed that video, you took it around to the street and showed them? I think you know it doesn't. This is hard. This is this is complicated. What did you study at university? English literature, Okay, interesting. Where did you study? Leeds, okay, and then from that to colts to this, yeah, that too, via several countries. I mean, I was always really interested in cultures and languages and things like, yeah. And so while I was at uni, I went to France. I don't know why there was a people from the French department had not got there were spaces on their trip, Erasmus trip. So they asked the English department, does anyone want to go? And I was the first, but I just happened to be checking my email, so I got back first. And so I was on this trip to Montpellier, and it changed my life south of France for Wow. What a year. And went out. Then I was studying English over there. So Mike, it was the easiest year I've ever had, because my class were all French people studying English. I already spoke it quite well my English. So I was correcting the teacher. They were like, Charles Dickens. And I was like, Charles, it's Charles. Easiest year you'll ever have. But I learned French. I never thought I would be able to learn another language. I thought that was only I don't even know. I thought only foreigners could learn different languages. That set me on a path where, after university, I studied journalism for a few months I did like a course, six month course, we have to learn shorthand and all those old fashioned things, politics, reporting and ethics. And went after that, I worked at the sun. I was the guy responsible at night for making sure the page three girl was on the iPad, and you could, you could rotate her. That's a tough job. It was tough at 21 doing that. It was a strange job, that it was a night job. So it was like 5am I'm on the phone to India, going like, Guys, she's not twisting properly.

  Peter McCormack

  Do you know about this? Like in when I was like, your age, The Sun newspaper you just would open on page three, there was a girl with, yeah, just that was a normal thing, a pair of tits on

  Andrew Gold

  page three of the newspaper. Yeah, your generation doesn't know what it's missing. Let me tell you that they've got the internet, no mobile phones, yeah, but they don't get news and briefs. That's what it was called, news and briefs was the pun, and they would say there would be a little opinion that the pastry girl had about politics. I think we should nuke around and those boobs out news and briefs. So I did that for a bit. I got thoroughly depressed with it after, I suppose, a year. And we can say, don't buy the sun, right? We can say, what? Don't buy the sun. I don't care. I do. Yeah, yeah. I you know, it's 2030, years. You know, everyone's they're all shit. That's true. They're all shit. They will worship people everywhere if you've got nothing else to read and there's a son in front of you, I'm sorry, liver, just fucking read it. Burn it after if you want.

  Peter McCormack

  Do you read any newspapers now?

  Andrew Gold

  Daily, mail, little bits every now and then. Mail Online. What's happening to Andrew Garfield or something, you Grant said hello to a postman or something. I don't know how I lost 20 pounds in six weeks. Tomatoes will kill you. I read a bit of that. No, no, I suppose not. It's mostly Twitter and then links to newspapers and things. But anyway, after that, after all the journalism stuff. I after the sun depressing. I went out to Colombia. I got, wow. I went to Medellin. I lived there for a year, and I decided I didn't have the money. I had nothing. I was, you know, and so I got the sun to send me out there to cover the Medellin Flower Festival in Colombia. So I got a free flight with Air France, I think it was, sent me out there. And I just, I resigned then, so I never went back to England, just stayed out there and found a flat with some Colombians who didn't speak English, and just lived out there for a year doing odd bits and pieces online, like working for articles and things like that, so I could learn Spanish. After a year, I got so bored of Colombians, I was gonna say Colombia and I changed it last second to Colombians there because I Colombians there, because it was just a different culture. They're lovely people, but it was just not my culture. So, and I was complaining to a Colombian friend of mine whose mum was like, listening, and she eventually just went, Andrew, if you don't like the country, just piss off and go to ghost go to Argentina. That'll be more your thing. Yeah, I went. I went

  Peter McCormack

  to Columbia for years because I went to Venezuela. Oh, the only way I could get into Venezuela was a flight from Colombia.

  Andrew Gold

  There you go. It's right, Colombia. It's lucky. But a year of it was too much. I did go to Buenos Aires, and I stayed there for six years, yep. And so pick that, learned the span the Argentine Spanish, and then moved to we moved to Germany after that for three years to learn German. You speak for five languages. Yes, five. Including Portuguese, because I went to Brazil for six months and did a course there. But my Portuguese is not great now. I mean, you have to practice them all. So I always worry someone's going to burst in and go, Okay, let's practice your languages. Then let's see if you say you speak five. Let's do them. But my French and Spanish are pretty fluent still. That's pretty good

  Peter McCormack

  experience, though, to do that and come back and then create a show. Haven't all experience different cultures.

  Andrew Gold

  It's a funny thing. You sort of, you come, you get to be it's a hard one, because I am aware that anyone watching who is of the sort of Steve laws, let's say, of their view which I have come to respect more, not his politics, but the view of the English ethnicity and so on. There's that anywhere versus somewhere, people. David Goodhart wrote, I love that as an explanation that there are people who are just somewhere, people who are of the place, and they are the ones who are heavily impacted by mass immigration. They have a street of people where they never leave. They don't I mean, they leave to go around or what they might go on holiday, but this is their street. They might live in that house or in that area their whole lives, and they see it change day by day, from a place that was all people of the same culture, the same ethnicity, let's say the same religion, the same talking points to you can't even understand anybody on your street. The somewhere people, sorry, the anywhere people, which is probably someone like me, maybe it's you as well. Are people who are maybe university educated, who have ambitions about living abroad, going to different places. They could probably up and go easier and fit into another culture, and they tend to be the elites who tends to be in charge of the world. So I do get it from the perspective of someone who's here seeing these guys lecture us. There's a noise that people can't hear on the microphone, probably,

  Peter McCormack

  but that was a once out downside of Soho, is that the on a Friday night, if we do a late show on a Friday, you hear all the bicycles go past with the music, so we've had to try and put as much dampening. But there's some upsides of Soho, that nightlife not gay enough. Yeah.

  Andrew Gold

  So I think a big part of the reason I went to all these different countries and learned the different languages was I wanted to, I wanted to be able to come back to England with a perspective as an outsider in some respect. And so I came back to my country and saw, especially with the passing of time, some absolutely mental things. And I think it was easier for me to see I know a lot of people, of people who stayed also saw how mental this was. But to go away for I think I was away for 1315, years, and you come back and suddenly, in this country, men can have vaginas, women can have penises. That was mental, because I've been away in a country where, like, Argentina, they're like, what you're talking about, yeah, you know, don't be ridiculous in Argent or offense culture, like people here, they it was like the boiling frog. They saw it happen quite gradually. So I was able to completely go in and come back into this boiling pot and go, What the hell no one's allowed to make any jokes. You saw that with the footballer Rodrigo Benton call a year or two ago. He's made a joke about human son looking like his cousins. Do you see that? No, I didn't It's his teammate, but he was off in, I think Brazil. He's Uruguayan, Benton cur he was in the summer. Nothing to do with England. He's off there. Someone asked him about son, and he said, Oh, I saw him, or maybe it was his cousin. Joke about, you know, East Asians looking the same, right? It's not that funny, and it's offensive. He got banned from nine games.

  Peter McCormack

  Well, we had it on League as well. So what's the team? What's the team where the manager made the joke about the female linesman, female ref, who's the guy who managed the team and owns the team, and they've had the most Dorkin? I'm pretty sure it's him, I think, but I could be wrong, but I think it's him. He made a joke about there was a female ref, and he said, I will help her park in the car park, an obvious, shitty joke. He got multiple match band for a joke, more than you get for breaking someone's leg. Yeah, probably Yeah. At a time when biological men were eligible to play in the women's game, yeah, as we were allowing that stupidity, which was unfair to the goal players and presented risk to the goal players. Yeah, a guy made a simple we can debate whether it's funny or not. I thought it was funny. I'm probably gonna get banned now as a chairman,

  Andrew Gold

  I think with the offense culture, I think especially that joke, and probably Benton curse joke, I think, look, you know, I get it. I get why people don't want those jokes to be happening. Maybe you could slap him on the wrist. Maybe you can say, hey, we're gonna fine you. Maybe not the non league guy. It's not, you know, he needs that. But Benton, could you find him a week's wages? Maybe he's even banned for one game to set a precedent. We don't want jokes about Asians looking the same. That's not what we want in our league, even though you were abroad when you made the joke. But what is really frustrating about it is there is a from a woke angle, it's a moral imperialism that we are setting implement, implementing. We are going over and saying to Uruguayans, who have a very different culture to ours, that's offensive. Even though you're in your country or you're in South America, when you say it, we're so offended by it, we're going to ban you over here because of the thing you do. That's very typically, typical to do in Uruguay. Uruguayans have very similar culture to Argentine Argentinian. So it's the same kind of thing. It's where the rich Argentinians go. Yeah, is the bit.

  Peter McCormack

  But then there, hold on, where did I go? Mehdi, no, me, what's the capital? Monte?

  Andrew Gold

  Video, yeah, Monte. Video, yeah, I say Monte. Video, Monte. Video, yeah. It's a bit of a bland place. Maybe you might want something nice in. It's like, Argentina's Monaco, yeah, it is, it is that so? And the whole of Uruguay is a bit of that, yeah. But he grew up Benson could relatively impoverished. And they speak out there. They call each other, like, Gino, hey, Chino. Like, Chinese, you know, hey, Gordo, Hey, Fatty like, they call each other those names and that we have forgotten that offense culture was a huge part of bonding, that kind of joking with one another. That's how we bond. That's how we laugh despite the miseries. And I think you can even apply this to not necessarily a somewhere versus anywhere person kind of perspective, but there's definitely a kind of elitist looking down at people who just want to, who don't have as much international elitist stuff going on in their lives, but can have a little bit of a laugh, a bit of a joke, sometimes, bit of Tommy Robinson stuff, right? That's how he is. Tommy grew up in a very much, I mean, he's a, he's a hard one to place, because he's, you know, I'd like to say he's a somewhere person, but he's constantly on holiday all over the place. You can't really pin him down as a somewhere person. But he grew up in a somewhere environment. He was very much in and of Luton, from Luton, that's his thing. And he grew up amid the boxing gyms, the football hooligans, those kinds of things, yeah? So having spent, I spent a week with him traveling around Israel, he is just, he's a lad, yeah? And he jokes

  Peter McCormack

  all the time, but he's been judged by people, middle class, people who live in Islington, who drink

  Andrew Gold

  lattes, yeah, who don't need to have that kind of jokey thing. And I think what's happening, more than just people being offended, really, is, I think they're trying to say to others, you're old fashioned, and I've got the new fashion.

  Peter McCormack

  It's identity. They're expressing their identity by putting a moral blanket over

  Andrew Gold

  society and this, but they're saying their identity is cooler than Tommy's. I think they're saying it's cool.

  Peter McCormack

  I don't know if it's cool. I think some maybe. I think some are saying they're better people.

  Andrew Gold

  Better people is definitely part of it. It's the piousness of it. But I think there's even more. I think it's fashion. So you can trace swear words in terms of the fashion, it means the morals as well. Yeah, morals, but there's if you stick to the morals, you're the fashionable one, because you're the one who gets to go on all the TV shows. You're the one that all your friends go, clap, clap. And you can trace swear words. I'm fascinated by this John mcwater talks about in his book nine nasty words from the religious So the worst thing you could say 150 years ago might have been hell or heck, or any of those kinds of religious words. And then as we moved into what the new mores of the day, or the new fashions of the day, it became the body fuck shit and those kinds of words. And in more recent times, it's become identity. So it's just a fashion, I think. And you see that as well in like colored, that was a word you were supposed to say. It was fashionable to say colored. Look at these, all these colored people, because it felt like a tempered way of saying black. Black felt harsh the cut in it. And, you know, I'm not, hey, I'm not black. You know, I'm it's colored, that kind of thing. And then suddenly people started saying colored. What? Saying, colored. What I'm a color? Am I? What do you think I'm black? Which changed. So that changes in the universities, where it's fashionable to hold certain views. And the kinds of people who don't hold the fashionable views are the Tommy Robinson's of this world. They're not fashionable. So what they did was they changed it to black. And over the years, you'll have seen, especially in the football world, they every now and then somebody would forget you're not supposed to say colored. And what fun we all had by going, Ah, what a dinosaur. We've caught him. He didn't know he was supposed to he's not supposed to say colored anymore. That was finally. Finally got to the point where everyone knew, everyone in the whole world knew you can't say colored, right? That was done. They changed it back to of color. So it there's no escaping. There is some

  Peter McCormack

  kind of who gets to invent, where did he? Do? You trace it? Where actually, literally comes. I think

  Andrew Gold

  it's fashionable university people who get a kick out of being cooler or more in vogue than the Tommy Robinson's of this world. But gradually it filters down to them. It does filter down. So even in football now, you've got all the LGBT stuff everywhere, you know, but it filters down to the working classes, and by the time they get it, like Burberry, the pochos, the elites, don't want it anymore, and they change the balls of the game.

  Peter McCormack

  Have you read any Rene Girard, I never read anything. No, I haven't. I think, I think you would really enjoy Rene Girard, so he talks about that people's aspirations come from other people they look at, and they aspire to be like. So they end up copying them, but they then end up fighting them to compete with them. So it shifts, it can shift how people think, but it ends up becoming a fight, and that can become in a workplace, that can become socially, it can become anywhere. And I think you, I think you'd enjoy, yeah, I like that, a bit of Rene Giard. I mean, I'm what I'm really interested I've taken a long time to get here, but what I'm really interested is, obviously, with your background in colbs, and they're making the show, when you look at the UK, right? Now, what do you how do you diagnose the how do you diagnose where we're at, like, when you look, what do you think of our biggest problems?

  Andrew Gold

  And, yeah, well, I'm always I moved socially. I'm a social creature. I was social when I went abroad. It was all about making friends and being part of a community wherever I was, and yet unmistakably English culturally and nationally. And I love that. And you almost become more English when you go abroad, because you show this who I am, but you also want to be polite to the local people. But what I'm trying to say is I know that you are initially a finance man, but where I personally am seeing the changes, you know, I see it socially. I see that I came in on the tube to London now, and I don't think I saw a white English. And by English I mean just civically, someone is someone who speaks English with an English accent. I didn't see one. I don't think I saw one. Where were you coming from? I don't want to, okay, I know. Ish, yeah. I mean, I mean, on the on the tube, right? And look, that's a class issue as well. To an extent, a lot, it's like an immigrant immigration, and we've got a sort of underclass of people who have come in. I get that's, that's really hard to get away from, but that's, that's mad. Where I lived in, I lived in Bristol before, for streets and streets around where I was, you know, I would say to my I don't want to bring her into this, but my wife, you know, how long until we see somebody who's not in Muslim attire? So it's not about the person themselves. It's about the garb and what it's showing. It's showing I am different. I am not of you. I think, I just don't, I don't think that can continue.

  Peter McCormack

  But we are a yes, but we are still a majority white, British nation. How? How is it that this must be, then contained to specific areas, if you are getting on a tube, cities, yeah, cities and what? Why do you think that's the biggest problem?

  Andrew Gold

  Yeah, I think, you know, but this is the thing. It's really hard for me to be I know I want to be more objective about this.

  Peter McCormack

  No, no, it's fine. It's just because you do the conversations with people, and I do this conversation with people, and I try and establish what I believe are the biggest problems. I always come back to economics, but at the same time, I do think immigration is a problem, but I think it's downstream of economics and money.

  Andrew Gold

  Yes. I mean, that's certainly true. I was gonna say, is that, look, when I used to do Scientology, for me, that was the biggest problem, you know, I was saying to people, have you not heard what's just happened with Danny Masterson from that 70s show? And he's gone to prison for, you know, those that most people don't even know what I'm talking about. But that was in. So right now I'm in this world that I've created myself, I suppose, with a YouTube channel where culture and immigration is pivotal, absolutely regarding economics being an issue. But it appears to me, and you'll know a lot more than me about this, so you tell me that one of the main issues we have is that we don't have an above replacement birth rate, and that's probably partly economic, economical and partly cultural. There's no pride in this country. There's no incentive either economic or cultural. You go to Israel. Israel is the one place in the West that seems to have not just with the Haredi community, but the secular Jews and above replacement level birth rate. There are many reasons for that. I think one of them is that they actually have real power. Actually have real peril there. They're surrounded by countries who want to kill them. But you could argue that English people, however you define, that are also in peril right now, and they're not getting going with having kids to replace themselves. I think there's more to it. I think there's a national pride that we need to start teaching in schools to help people be proud. Because so many people you hear go, Well, we did the Empire stuff. I hate all that. I hate us. Why would I bring kids into this world that needs to go because that's destroying us.

  Peter McCormack

  But you have to be able to want to have a child and then afford to have a child, yeah, but people had children before they could afford it. I just have like 10 kids, sure, but it's but it's very difficult now, when there's different social pressures on kids. Conor made a really great point the other day when we were making a show. He said, Deb, when you grew up, your peer group was essentially everyone you went to school with. That's who you were competing with. He said, I have to compete with the whole world, because I have a mobile phone that tells me what the whole world is doing, and I see what all their success is. I see a 21 year old who's streaming. He's got a Lamborghini. He's living in Dubai, and so look, Conor himself doesn't feel like he's compete with that person, but generally makes him complex. But generally speaking, it does exist that there's this, like, I'm meant to achieve all of this. Like, when I was a kid, it was like, we're meant to go to school, go to uni, and go get a job, and, you know, you'd eventually get a house. I think a lot of kids now it's like you're meant to go and be, become a millionaire, like that. That's it, because that's what your peer group is doing. So I think there's that pressure. I also think hardcore pornography is a major problem. I think why did you point at your phone? Well, because it's my son's there. Man, come on. Yeah. Yeah, but I think that is a problem. I also think Tinder fuck things up. Yeah, I got this thesis on Tinder. It flipped the flip the dating game, because I don't know how you met your wife, but my assumption is, like most of us, before Tinder, you go up in a bar and you would talk to a girl get arrested for now, yeah, well, you cheat yourself. I did when

  Andrew Gold

  I was 18. I did shit myself, not literally. That's gonna be taken

  Peter McCormack

  out of growing up like you're meant to have that bit where you were shitting yourself and yeah, for the first time,

  Unknown Speaker

  I struggled though. I

  Peter McCormack

  struggled even, but everyone that the only way you met a girl got snog was going up at a party or in a bar and talking to a girl, and you Yes, so much fear of rejection, right? But if she talks to us, oh my god, she's actually talking to me, this is amazing. And then maybe get a phone number, and you get a date, and she gives you a snob, you know, oh my god, this is amazing. And then, you know, if you're super fortunate, at some point she'd have sex with you. It's like, oh my god, I'm fucking sex with a girl here, and then you would stay with her, because otherwise you'd never know when that would happen again. And so you got to know a girl, and you date it. We flipped it now so the women were in control, because the men had to go and ask them out. I think Tinder flipped it, because what we did is we gave we took away the fear for men. You upload a photo, and then you just swiped, keep swiping, and eventually you get a match. It's like, oh, the fear bits gone. I know that person likes me, because imagine in the days when you just go to a bar, there was like a little screen above every girl, and you knew for definite which girls would definitely talk to you were you just go and talk to them.

  Andrew Gold

  It would be unbelievable, though, yeah. But this point that's ruined everything, yeah, from an individual point of view. Wow. What a great thing

  Peter McCormack

  that would be to have. But so you these young lads are getting it screened for them. These are the girls that will talk to you, and now they're going out on a date, and maybe they've got eight other matches there, and so they don't have to. So we created these fuck boys, right? That don't have to worry about it, and they don't have to. So, and then the flip for the girls is, now, is there? They've got a different worry. It's like, is he going to see me again? Am I just one of eight? And that's why I think there's so because I was, I got divorced in 34 so I dated, you know, for 34 to 40. And I dated a lot of not a lot, but I dated a few girls. I wasn't that bad, but I dated a few girls, and there's a lot of girls who just want to have children. Like, I think this is a male led thing. I think there's a lot of girls who women who really just want to have children. They've done the work thing. They realize it's not really fulfilling, because I met a lot, but how old? I mean, mid to late 30s. Like, last chance salute, yeah, but it's different thing. But what I'm saying it's last chance saloon. Like they haven't got times. Most dates, you'd find you'd be asked within the first day, do you have more children? They're screening you to see if they're gonna waste

  Andrew Gold

  time, because they're but they're in the last chance saloon. The album is the women in their 20s who are trying to build careers, and so they should, yeah, but if they want to, if they want to, not gonna force them to build a career. I think that's the issue, unfortunately, and I remember watching

  Peter McCormack

  but just back to my point is that we flipped it. We've taken the power away from women in the dating environment, where they definitely should have been in charge, and then we've given it to men who are fucking idiots in the dating environment, like we can separate what men and women are good at and what they're not good at. I think the dating scene was best when women have the power and

  Andrew Gold

  we can extent women still have a power there, though, they have a menu, as far as I can tell. And back when I was doing this before I was married, and people can be going hang on Wednesday, but I've been with my wife 12 years or so, but before that, I just flick yes to mostly because I felt like I wasn't going to get a good ratio. Because it is, it is women are much more picky. Yeah, of course. So that's this power in that

  Peter McCormack

  you say that, but that means there's a lot more, a lot of women fighting over a few, a few men.

  Andrew Gold

  There are they actually won.

  Peter McCormack

  Yes. Have you seen that table where it's like, based on attractiveness, and all the women are pointing up to the top 30% of men, but they could still go out with someone who's in the bottom 70% whereas the men, most men, only have, like, almost no one of the women who date them. I just I think it's still power for women. Oh, then there is. I just think they had all the power in dating before Tinder and that worked well. But look, it's complex and it's nuanced, and you're right. We haven't got the replacement rate that we need. Sorry, we should go backwards. Sorry, we tangent there. So, so you think culture is the biggest problem, you think, and the immigration side of this?

  Andrew Gold

  Well, you know, others will say AI is the biggest problem, you know, or the economy, as you might point out. So we've got many problems, and they all interact, of course, and they might even save one another. I've heard, I've heard theories about the issue with the birth replacement levels might not be so important if AI is good enough that we don't need a larger world. We don't need humors, yeah, to support this, the seat the older people, but it might also rid us of purpose. So there are issues. I always see it as kind of getting a football manager. You get a new manager in your team because your team has been too defensive. So you get angepostacog, who attack all the time, and you don't know what the ramifications of that will be there. And that's just 11 players. When you're dealing with the world, you don't know what bringing in AI as a new manager, or the economy changing slightly this way or that way, what's going to happen? We thought feminism was this fantastic idea. I still like the idea. Of course, if I had daughters, I would want them to be able to do whatever they want. Has it led to us having a less happy group of women, and as a lot of surveys seem to point towards, so many going back to the previous point, I suppose, so many women I know. Pretty much almost every woman I know who was extremely academic, extremely ambitious, has done their job. I'm now 36 they've gotten to about my age. They've had a kid or two, or sometimes before they had kids, they've gone. Don't really want this. Why have I been told I need to go and do all this. I I'd quite like to be just a wife and a mother nowadays. So what I'm trying to say is there are so many different aspects to what might be destroying us. It does. It does appear clear that people are not happy with the state of this country. That's why reform is so popular in the polls right now. It's why Zac Polanski is also quite popular in the polls. And what I see when I opened my door in when I bought in Bristol, where I was was a world I don't recognize anymore, that doesn't recognize me, and we used to have a higher trust society, and that's that's so much to so many people, and it's gone, and I'm not sure we can ever really get that back, especially while we encourage people who come to The country not to settle in, not to assimilate, that is unbelievable, that happens. And that's another one of those things that if you're outside of the cult, and then you come to England, having not been here, you come to Britain. So for me, that was the case. I was in Argentina Argentine flags everywhere. Everyone is so proud to be Argentinian. You go there as an expat or an immigrant, you are expected to be part of what they do, to come back here for me and then see the way we speak about our own history, our own culture, one of the best cultures ever that we have, that we had, and the way it's spoken about, and the way that people who come here are told to celebrate their own culture here rather than adapt. That's that is mad. That is one of those things that if an alien came down, they would go, What the hell are they doing in that country right now? Do you think it can be fixed? Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's, you know, it probably can't go back to what it was. I warn against this judgment of people based on ethnicity, for you know, because I just don't think, I don't think that's smart, I don't think that's a good way to handle this without breaking into war. We've seen civil wars around the world, they're usually based on multi ethnic societies and the tensions between ethnicities. So I think if we start pushing ethnicity too much as an important factor, that's where we're going to end up. However, we have to stop denigrating our culture right now. And I think if you do that, and I get, I get criticism from the right when I say this, but Catherine burble sings Michaela school, it's 90% ethnic minority. I don't suggest that we have 90% ethnic minorities in this country, because there wouldn't be minorities. It would just be different ethnicities and things. But at least she teaches those people who are already here. She's not going to be able to, she's not going to deport them. I don't think she wants to, but she wouldn't to assimilate and to be proud of this amazing culture, there's almost no culture in the world that's been as amazing as this one, from everything from our politics and history to our music to our films, the way this small island has affected the world, our sense of humor, our sarcasm, to an extent, there are so many things that do make us English that I think people shy away from now, but

  Peter McCormack

  I hear people Say About assimilate, we have to ensure people assimilate. But policy wise, how do you actually make that a thing? How do you make it happen?

  Andrew Gold

  Well, you do. I mean, there is, there are some, there are things you can do. I mean, it sounds so silly, but flags are important that's the reason that the left is so flag happy all the time. You know, all the apart from one, what our flag? What the British Exactly? Well, exactly the flag, the amount, number of times I've been told, because I love the British flag, I love the English flag. And I get told by these guys, oh, you're a flag shagger. And they've got like eight different flags of, like, multi binaries, some Ukraine always there, isn't it? Yeah, Ukraine,

  Peter McCormack

  which, by the way, I am. I don't care if you want to recreate flag, fine, but you should also

  Andrew Gold

  have a, I'm bored of the Ukraine flag. I don't think they need a Ukraine. You can be pro UK. You know, be pro UK three in mine, I have the Irish flag because I'm half Irish. Your flag shagger and the British flag at a pirate flag. Yes, I like the pirate. Yeah. That's, I know, yeah, that's cool. Obviously, flags are important. They mean something to people. There are an identity, and people want their identity recognized. And for a huge number of people who feel that they're English, whether ethnically or culturally, to not be able to show that and to have the Gary Nevilles of this world, I like Gary Neville, but I think he made a huge mistake by going around criticizing people just for hoisting a flag. So you start

  Peter McCormack

  with the flags. Yeah. But. Yeah, Gary's part of the media, lovelies, he has to say that,

  Andrew Gold

  yeah, well, that's an issue, but he needs to be a bit stronger. Yeah, he's not. He's weak. Yeah, well, that's it. I think you and I do push back against people when we don't agree, and then we get flack for it, but

  Peter McCormack

  you also get supported for as well. Yeah. I just think, do you know? I think I look at it all and I think, right, say we solve immigrations, we get down to kind of, I don't know, zero immigration. Maybe deport some people who are here illegally and some criminals. I think what comes after that is a country that's still unhappy and still fighting,

  Andrew Gold

  there are more problems. So yeah, stopping immigration is the first step. And I don't even talk about that because it's it seems so obvious to me, like that's the first step, obviously, stop the boats. But I think a bigger issue is the huge mass immigration that's legal right now. And one of the hard parts about that is we It sounds humane in many respects, because you say to people, you can have your family members come in, but people who come from Pakistan and India and those kinds of places have got such vast families that it's a bit of a loophole, and it's just going to keep doubling and doubling. So we have to get a handle on that legally. It appears that's what suelo bravaman speaks about. That's what this, you know, the ECHR, and they've got to get a handle on the legal aspect. I don't, I'm not an expert in that stuff, but they've got to stop that at that point. Yet, there have to be huge cultural changes. There have to be changes to the education system, we need to teach empire in a positive manner. Yes, talk about some of the horrible things they did. They did horrible things, but overall, this was quite a positive endeavor. We were that we ruled the world. Every country wanted to do that, and we did it with bad stuff as well. But those are the kinds of things that need to change. Look at 3040, years ago, black people in this country, they had names like John and Ian, and now they have names that tend to be African in ethnicity. Why does that happen? Because they are told over and over again by our media that they need to celebrate whatever culture came before. At the same time, the right is seeing a hypocrisy there, because they're saying, Well, hang on, you want to say you're as English as everybody else, but also that you get to have this other culture. And they say it of Jews as well, with Israel. And I take their point. I think Jews just as much as black people, whoever else. I think we need to be a bit proud of this country where we are, because there's a reason that we're all here and we love this country. So I think that is a cultural issue that needs to be pushed more in schools. And people might say, well, that's authoritarian to push narrative in schools. But I mean, any ideology they teach in schools is already being pushed. What right now we are seeing an ideology being pushed.

  Peter McCormack

  But how would you even do that in schools? I mean, what didn't that poll come out recently? Seven in 10 teachers would vote left, either green or labor. How are you going to shift a education system that's been completely captured by left wing ideology.

  Andrew Gold

  I think, I think it's a really hard battle. I think you and I are responsible. We have responsibility because we have these big audiences. Trigonometry Winston Marshall, just in case people wanted to make sure he got his full name. But, but all of us, we've got these big audiences full of a lot of people who are actually a lot of them are quite centrist. Some will even be a bit lefty, and they like listening to our show because we have reasonable voices, because we're not saying deport everybody who's not the same as us. We've got a reasonable way of speaking about these things, and I think it is our duty to start convincing them. And I've been saying for a while that one of the ways to do this is through celebrities. There's a reason that brands pay so much money for celebrities to endorse their stuff, the same works for ideologies. The last 20 years, it's the celebrities that started pushing, particularly comedians on BBC, started pushing this mad left wing, post modern agenda. So and it wasn't funny, it wasn't funny, it wasn't funny. Is this? Well, the least funny people on Earth. And unfortunately, there's that woman, Rosie Jones, is it also? She's got cerebral palsy.

  Peter McCormack

  Yes, she's deciding what we can find funny anymore.

  Andrew Gold

  Yeah, the dictator or the Fuhrer of comedies, I'd be honest, actually saw one of her clips, and she did actually make me laugh. I'm sure she's been funny sometimes, and I'm sure I think she's got one joke. I imagine she's a really nice person as well. I don't think she's fully, you know, she's, she's fallen for the same ideology as a lot of the rest of them. So I think it's incumbent upon us. I have celebrities, I'm sure you do, I'm sure the others do as well, who reach out anonymously, you know, and say, like, I actually really like your show. I agree with you, yeah. And I say, Do you want to come on and talk about that? No, but it's about changing things. And everybody on the right, I suppose, has a role to play in that, and I think it is happening. I mean, the trans stuff, nobody talks seriously about that anymore. It's still there. You see. Well, they're the last ones to fall Yeah, of course. So we do change these things, and then once the right gets a bit of a handle on the culture, there'll probably be a big civil war on the right, just as there was on the left. And I don't know why. So perpetual war, I think, I think, I think it's what happens. Is true, crisis after existential crisis. I think one side typically takes charge of a culture, and once they've got that, or politics or culture, if they've got a once they have that, some people want to continue becoming more extreme, and the others going no. Now let's open up to both sides and let everyone in.

  Peter McCormack

  But I think it is getting more extreme so and this. Is what I worry about, because every single party in every election is treating the other side like it's an existential crisis. So reform, at the moment, their message is, this is the last chance to say Britain. And so if you don't vote for reform, Britain is done. We are finished. We're cooked. And yet whatever weird left wing Alliance we get, whether it's Zach Polanski and Ed Dave or whatever they're gonna say, this is an existential crisis. If you do not vote for us, we're gonna get the racist and the fascists of reforming and so someone will win the climate stuff. Well, yeah, the climate as well. And it was the same in America. You know, you have to vote for Trump. If you don't, it's an existential crisis. If Kamala wins, and the next election will be the same. If you vote for Trump, look what he's done. He's been empire building. You have to vote for Gavin Newsom. It's an extra central crisis. And what happens is it doesn't matter who you vote for. Steve Baker said this to me, it doesn't matter who you vote for. Government still wins. And the one thing that doesn't change is the debt doesn't get smaller. The debt gets bigger and bigger. Inflation keeps growing. We get wage compression. Everything gets more expensive. Houses get further away from our kids, and the state gets to continually steal from us through our rights, through legislation, through the bureaucracy that affects our businesses, and through the creation of money. So whatever happens, the money people still win. The banks still win. And I might sound conspiratorial with this myself, but it was a really good Chamath video that came out today or yesterday, where he said, you know, Chamath is, you know, the all in podcast, all in the four guys, the four investors in America. So he's a multi billionaire. And he said, he just came out, said, the truth, which is true, 150 people actually run the world. They're all men, and they move the money around the world. It'll be your Larry Finks and your Vanguards and who have got the money. And they just decide what happens from country to country. All the politicians are puppets. Again, I sound conspiratorial, but it's true. And so what happens is we just, we just roll this debt over around the world from place to place, we continue drive inflation. All the assets inflate, and the rich get richer and the poor get poorer. And you can, you can map this back for the last three, four decades in this country easily. And so this is my worry, is that as we watch these parties fight and argue and try and get you to buy their narrative in the background, the debt keeps growing. Inflation keeps going up. Everyone gets poorer, and I think we have to escape that. How do we do that? Well, mean, you have to, we all have to become libertarians. No, but there's a Have you ever read the law by Bastiat? No. So he said the government, the state, should just do three things. It should protect and defend life, liberty and property, they're the only three things it should do. The minute it goes into redistribution, it flips the kind of there's like an morality is inversed, because when it's defending life, liberty and property, it's defending you as the individual. Once it's redistributing you, it's now it can go into your pocket to look after special interest groups. So morality becomes inverse, and that's how you get culture wars. And I'm not saying we're going to go build a society based on what Bastiat said, but at the moment, all that's happening is constant theft. Inflation is constant theft.

  Unknown Speaker

  It does appear or

  Peter McCormack

  constant theft all the time. And what happens is parties like the Labor Party, the poor are so poor they have to keep giving them more, just so they can function the society, just so they can afford to put their basics of putting their heat on and feeding their family. And you get that wage compression between minimum wage and the lower middle class, where there's almost no distinction between the two anymore. And if you look at any society that's crumbled under inflation or crumb, yeah, I mean, Argentina is a great example. I mean, one of the things you must have noticed when you were living there, a lot of the young people left because they couldn't buy a home.

  Andrew Gold

  What a frustrating side effect of that was they couldn't get into Britain. There were so many very smart people out in Buenos Aires, doctors, lawyers and so on, friends of mine who were desperate to live in London. I don't think they knew what London had become, unfortunately.

  Peter McCormack

  But I mean, I know, when I went out to Buenos Aires, the people I spoke to, they said, You've got two jobs as an Argentinian. Your first job is your job, but 30% of your time, you are a financial director. You are, how do I move my money around to protect my purchasing power? And I think Malay, for whatever criticism people have in him, at least he is trying to recall restore some sense of the economics of that country.

  Andrew Gold

  It's that there's, there's a culture as well. And this, again, this goes back. I don't want to keep pushing back to immigration and culture and things, but that's how my mind is wired. And I take your points in all of this. And inflation, obviously, is a problem. One of the half jokes that Argentinians always make is, gosh, if only the British had come instead of the Spanish and the Italians, you know, the British would be. Like Australia now, and I think there's actually a lot of truth in that. Now, the reason it doesn't quite work is because I would say to these people, yeah, but it wouldn't be you, because you're a descendant of those Spanish so you'd be off somewhere else. But had the British come over, it might be different. And it that that's why it's so important the kinds of cultures and people that move to a certain country. There's a reason that Argentina stands out as very different to the rest of South America, just from looking at them. I mean, they're whiter, right than the rest of South America. They are more European in their mannerisms. They're very Italian, whereas the rest of you wouldn't say Colombians are very Italian or Bolivians. And that's because 100 or so years ago, 120 years ago, loads of Italians moved to Argentina, and they made for an Italian culture of pizza and the way they celebrate their football and they're very their hand signals, they're very Italian. So it is direct evidence that if a large portion of people from a particular culture move to another place, shifts it, shifts it. And 125 years later, here we are with Argentina and next door in Paraguay, utterly different, because different people came also how they interacted with the indigenous was different. In Argentina, I think they killed them, and in other countries, they raped them. But I don't know which you prefer. If you're an indigenous person, it's no good. But this was some time ago, so to me, that's direct evidence of what we already know. You know, people move to this country, as we've had en masse, from countries that are economically much worse off than us and have cultures that are very different to ours, especially with the way that they handle money and business, we are eventually going to look more like them. That's just reality, isn't it? But it means it's actually happening, yeah. So yes, I take your point about the big the people with them. I don't even know about those guys, and they're scary, but also it stands to reason that we created this amazing economy at one point that ruled the world in many respects, off the back of a Protestant work ethic. Germany did similar. America did similar. You could even, you know, you can even look at the culture I was having this chat with Ann Coulter, I think it was about Protestantism versus, say, Catholicism, and that's Mexico versus America. And the Catholic countries haven't done as well financially. So again, in Argentina, Catholic country, Italians and Spanish, I don't think they have been historically as good with money and business and things as we've been and that is part of their culture. Now, every single Argentine, they don't pay tax, most of them, because they don't trust the system. Every five years or so, they have this thing, I think it's called a blancamiento, like a whitening or something, where you were given the option to start paying tax again, and they won't put you in prison for previously not having done so, or they won't fine you for not having done so. They're given, like, a chance to get on the books, yeah. And some people take up that option, but others are like, well, you

  Peter McCormack

  know, I remember when I was in Argentina, they bring out the bill. They would offer you a discount if you paid in dollars

  Andrew Gold

  cash, yeah? Well, the dollars was a big thing, and they had this thing called the dollar blue Yeah, the blue dollar, yeah. So when I first moved to Argentina, was that a time when that was big, and so I used to go, I'd organize for this guy. They were usually taxi drivers who are almost kind of like mafiosos. And this guy would come pull up outside my flat once a month with a huge pile of bills or whatever. I would give him my dollars, and he would give me the blue dollar rate, which is a better rate than you get elsewhere. What a strange economy, just a whole madness. But again, it comes back to the culture. This is a very different culture to ours. We even see it in football. Look at the Argentinians. It's like cheat, if you can just win. But they also have a very protected, protectionist culture. There's no Apple, there's no Amazon, those kinds of things. And I used to get stopped frequently arriving at the airport, and they'd be checking my bags in case I brought something from the outside world. Well, how are they going to compete with the rest of the world? How are they going to make their own Mercado Libre, which was their Amazon, it doesn't have anything to compete with and get better.

  Peter McCormack

  So when we were out there, I was taking money out of the cash machine, yeah. And, yeah, one of the guys was there said, what you doing? You're, like, getting half the dollars? Yeah. I was like, Well, how else to get money. He's, you've got Bitcoin, right? So, yeah, it's like a money dealer guy came to the hotel. I transfer. I had to convert it into tether. Transfer him tether, and then he gave me the dollars. I still played a higher rate than the official rate, but much lower than the cash machine rate. But I one of the guys I'd been staying with. We sent him some tea, some British tea that he wanted. We got to customs. They doubled the price. Wow. The customs for him to pick it up. Wow. The whole But John, I found was weird about Argentina, because I knew about the inflation. I expected to see a lot of poverty in Buenos Aires, and I didn't, strangely in the sense the outskirts, yeah, the

  Andrew Gold

  center as well. Though there's an air record retiro near the near the train station. That is, they have their slums. There they call right? Bishas Spelt bit of villas, bias and but the outskirts is where you get these big V shares. They have like numbers like bishad Number one, vishad number 30, and so on. And that is, I've actually not been but a friend of mine used to volunteer to help in those. Areas. And he said you would see people like missing limbs, and it's that kind of poverty. And then you've got this very European, modern center where people are walking about, you know, look in suits and things. It's, it's grotesque, really, to see that kind of difference in equality.

  Peter McCormack

  I was also told that when people get money, they would buy bricks and flooring and tiles, because the currency was debasing so quickly, and then when they had enough, they would just build another room on their house or another floor.

  Andrew Gold

  Yeah, yeah, because it's property, it's, you know, so they all buy property, and you get these people who, in the UK would be considered to be lower class, working class, or, you know, just above just keeping themselves alive, really? Who own properties and rent out the rooms? They're small, tiny properties. Yeah? About tiny, little flats and rent out the rooms. Because the only way, if you've got to keep this money loads of others keep stashes of dollars, or however they might get them in the in their mattresses, like hidden in those kinds of things, because the dollar won't appreciate at the same Well, hopefully not at all.

  Peter McCormack

  Yeah. So I think where you're seeing the decay through the culture and immigration. I'm seeing the decay through the economics of the country. I think both are a problem. Yeah, both are a huge problem. But I think what I worry is people think solving immigration is some kind of like silver bullet for fixing the country. And I just think if we don't fix the money in the economics, you can do whatever you want with immigration, people are still going to be poorer and face a tougher future, people like Connor getting on the housing ladder, or his friends. I think the it's funny because you also mentioned the AI. I think about that a lot as well. So the Think about, there's a really good book called The price of tomorrow, written by a guy called Jeff booth, and he says technology is deflationary. So in that, every time you go and buy a TV, that TV will be half the price in a year, two years, right? Mobile phones, when we first, I don't remember the, remember the first phones, but it was phone and text, right? Yeah, yeah. But now you've got what directions and any book you want, the entire history of human knowledge, and it's all exists on these phones. So technology itself is deflationary. And if technology is deflationary, then everything should be deflationary. We should be able to produce everything better and cheaper. But because we live in a debt based society, that doesn't happen. That's why you get inflation, and you cannot match a society that is built on technological deflation with inflationary currency, because there's a mismatch. What really should be happening is, if we're building everything better and faster and cheaper with technology, the money that we have should be appreciated in value, like our pounds should be buying more, but they're not because of debt. Because of debt.

  Andrew Gold

  It's an interesting I mean, again, I I speak to as a lay person in finance, yeah, and since YouTube, it's the first time that I've had sort of money. I need to speak to a financial advisor, you know, put it all in Bitcoin. I'll put it all in Bitcoin. Then I've got to do something. You know, you've got to do something, because if it does just, it's a cost just keeping it still. Yes, it's a melting ice cube. Yeah. So it's a strange one. But what is strange to me and probably a lot of other lay people, and most people watching your show in particular, won't be lay people, but there will be some. They probably feel the same as me. It's funny how much you're incentivized to have debt. Yes, like, of course, you need to have a credit card to do certain things. I never wanted to do that. I didn't want to work that way. I always felt like, no, I'm going to spend within my means. I'm never going to get into any kind of debt. And that meant that when I was on minimum wage, well, I had to just not eat as much as I wanted at that point. And, you know, I had to be really careful. And I got really good at that, and then I came to find, 10 years later, like, oh, hang on, now I can't really get a mortgage, because what I should have been doing is using a credit card to get stuff. I can't afford, I mean, okay, you can see. I mean, okay, you can say, no, just get, still get the stuff you can afford, but make sure it's on a credit card. It's not nice because you've got a month going on. What if it doesn't go through, and then I haven't, you know, what if I forget to make you go through all the automatic transfer doesn't happen. Now forever, I'll be marked as someone who paid late. So you are pushed all the time to have these kinds of debt places, and you get air miles and so on as well, if you do that. And it just seems mad to me, I don't want to do that.

  Peter McCormack

  I worry less about personal debt than government debt. Sure, because it's, you know, it's a decision. When I want to own a house, I want to borrow some money and I will pay. The thing is, most of us pay off the personal debt. Great. Get a mortgage. Most of us pay that off over 30 years. You pay a high amount over that 30 year term, but you get to own something at the end of it. It's the government debt that I worry about, because they don't pay it off. Yeah, we, I don't know if you know, but the UK government's debt pile now is about 3 trillion, but if you add in unfunded liabilities, pensions, etc, it's like, was it 8 trillion or 12 trillion? Last time we looked, it's ridiculous number. I don't know how many nice tables like this you get a lot, but the reason I worry about this and focus on this a lot is when you start to see the mechanics of it. So when the Yes, basics, but when the government cannot afford to pay what it wants, it goes and creates a new money. Me. But when that money is created, when it goes into the system, it just goes to the people near the money creator, the money spigot, and what they do is they then buy up all the assets. It goes to the first people to receive them. Yeah, the banks, the asset managers. I mean, we have 0% interest rates when the government's given away money to for free to juice the economy. Who's that money going to and what are they doing? They're buying equities, you know, they're buying property, they're buying gold, they're buying but they're buying the assets actually insane, yeah, but the prices of things start going up before your wages go up. And so all that happens is all the rich people get, hoover up all the assets. And so you get inflation, but you also get asset inflation. So if you've got enough assets, inflation is amazing. Like, if you if you're sat there with 25 million in assets, you want this to carry on, because when everything inflates, your assets inflate and you can leverage in their interest, yeah. Well, also think about it like this. Say you're sat there with 25 million of assets, you can borrow pounds against those assets, and then you can buy more assets with those pounds you've borrowed, so you're buying an appreciating asset with a depreciating asset. And so all that does, it just makes the rich richer and the poor poorer. And this is why we've got what we've got now with, again, wage compression and the inflation. That means that people go to Sainsbury's. Used to get a trolley for 50 quid. Now it's a bag.

  Andrew Gold

  At the same time, though, that there is another argument. I'm talking more about quality of life, that today's poorest in the UK are significantly better off in terms of daily comforts than 50 or 100 or 200 certainly years ago, the poorest were, at one point, literally dying of starvation. I'm also aware some people be screaming, well, that's happening to people down my I'm sure it is happening some people, but that's certainly a smaller percentage than others. Most people in the UK now have hot showers. Yes, right? Most people have iPhones. Most people have these. That would have been inconceivable 100, 200 years ago. So I would say that, yes, there is a huge problem. There's a huge disparity in wealth between the and what you've just described is really scary. That's why I think the culture issue, it goes hand in hand. But what

  Peter McCormack

  was the cost of that to society? The cost to society was my dad bought his first house, a four bedroom, detached house, on the same salary that Connor's on now, the same equivalent. And my mum didn't work, and they had three kids, and I went to a private school, and so did my brother and we had a holiday each year. Yeah, the same salary my son here is on. But there's, that's an argument, isn't it about that can be an argument about feminism? No, it's not about this, isn't there could be but sure, women should go to work, but what I'm saying is they should have the choice. Just be honest. I'm honest to my daughter about this. Like, if you want to have a career, you should, but you just have to think about the life stages that you want to hit and what's going to become important to you at different stages. Just be aware of that. But if you look at like Connor now for him, if he wants to buy a house, he can't get a four bedroom detached at what can you get? You get two bed flat, one bed flat and the worst part of Bedford, one bed flat and the worst part of Bedford, the same house that my dad would have actually, no, the worst house that we could find. Was it the worst? No, the cheapest four bed detached house in the same area that my dad bought is now 385,000 pound so that's, it's a 10x in the same time, wages have gone up 3x it's not the reason that's a 10x and the wages have gone up 3x is because the government creates money. They give it to the rich people, and the rich people take up the assets. It's, it's just math and how, if you continue to squeeze that you rather than having, you have this weird kind of financial imbalance in society where you have so many super rich and everyone else is flattened. You don't want that. You need a good, healthy middle class. Yeah, and to me that, I think if we don't fix that our country will literally collapse. It's quite scary. Yeah, it is, like, I scream about this all the time, and most of the shows are talking about culture, and I think the culture stuff is important, but we are voting for parties who are making us poorer. We have to run harder and harder, and we have to expect less. So that's that scenario. Now it's not even, some people don't even have a choice. Like, we force companies to give maternity and paternity. We force them to pay for it. Because how many people, if they want to have a kid, can just go, Yeah, I'm just gonna my wife's

  Andrew Gold

  just gonna get work. But again, this might be a feminism, I mean, and again, I don't know enough about five.

  Peter McCormack

  Let's park the feminism for now. Just say, Does your wife work well with me? Now, she was a lawyer, but if she just wanted to stop work and have children, could you just do that easily?

  Andrew Gold

  We now? Could you now? Could, but yeah, a couple of years before this success, absolutely not in a million

  Peter McCormack

  years now. Yeah, so we're handing our children to be raised by. State. So used to be raised by the my mum raised me, my son, my son, me, my brother and my sister. None of us went to a nursery. That just wasn't a thing. I don't know how many people don't if by one two years old, put their kids into a nursery. So because we've got to this point where to be able to afford the to afford to be able to afford to participate into society. So you can have your mobile phone, you can have the house you want. You need two salaries.

  Andrew Gold

  Is it not the case? And I generally am asking, because I don't know that. It used to be the case, as you say, that one person you know in the family, usually the dad would be employed, and that was enough for the family. And then once women started entering that as well, explain to me, if this happened, did everything, then sort of catch up to the point that okay, because everyone's doing it's no longer effective. Whereas, had women not entered the workforce in the same way, it might have stayed as okay for one parent households to be working would have stayed that way, because that's the way it was. Yeah. So, so by then, having the second parent coming in at first, that was a great advantage, but then everyone started doing it, and now we need so that's, that's what I mean, is I reason I talk about this because I was having this debate with a friend of mine who's was a big feminist, really good faith sort of conversation. We're not shouting at each other or anything, but it's that Bertrand Russell phrase that I really like, and I can never get it right, but it roughly says something like, you know, when analyzing society, go with what is actually true, not what you wish were true, or would have beneficial consequences for society, were it true? I think that's the that's the issue with everything. I mean trans, for example, it would be lovely if it was true that if you want, you can change into a woman, but unfortunately, you can't. Maybe some of the things we've pushed for, multiculturalism, what a lovely, wonderful thing. Everyone bring your culture, and we'll all celebrate it, and everyone's happy. Communism, lovely. What a lovely idea. Everybody just gets to hang around and, you know, do the same, and everyone gets to the same. Nobody's rich anymore. Lovely idea. All these things when they're implemented, are travesties. They absolutely screw us when we try to be too idealistic. So it's a really hard position for many of us, particularly libertarians. And I consider myself one as well. Who say anyone should just do you know, women, man, individuals, whatever, we have to also face a reality. Maybe I don't know enough about this, but maybe we have to face a reality that by pushing something like that, this libertarian feminism, I suppose we might call it, and you know, everyone do that might have caused a huge downfall in our society and made for a way where now you can't live without having both parents working.

  Unknown Speaker

  Yeah. I mean, look,

  Peter McCormack

  you're making a fair point. Okay, if I'm a libertarian, I don't care if I don't care if women work, they should be asked to work, sure, but I think of it slightly differently. I think in terms of, say, education, I would not put my kids through state education. Okay, they went through private education. It wasn't that I would homeschool them, because I don't want my children raised by the state when their job is to push an agenda which justifies having a state. It's like economics, the majority of so when I did a did you study economics? No, I did a level economics, they teach a version of economics called Keynesian economics. Well, Keynesian economics teaches you that the government can print enough money as long as they keep inflation under control. But inflation is theft. It's always and everywhere. Theft is constant, theft and so, you know, you talk about wanting to reform education. The way to reform education is get the state out of education. I mean, I don't believe the state should be anywhere in the education because their incentive is to teach you what is true for them, the BBC and the BBC. I mean, the BBC should just be scrapped, but that's what's responsible for a lot of what's going on. But the difficulty for people like you and me is and it's something I'm trying to confront at the moment, and I think that's why Carl Ben That's why Carl Benjamin is sort of, I don't know what he would call himself, post liberal, or he's gone beyond that. He's going, No, there's a problem with this. Is we're sitting in we have these wonderful ideas that fit a particular ideology that you and I grew up with, which is fairness for all everybody sort of do your own thing, and all individuals that might actually have been the cause of crumbling us? Yeah, I don't think it is. I think, I think the cause of crumbling us is the growth of the state.

  Andrew Gold

  The size of the state could be, could be several causes, because

  Peter McCormack

  I look at the size of the state, the surface area of the state is so huge now they're in every part of our business. And what has actually got better under government in the last 30 years. Have they improved the health service? Have they improved? Have they improved the police as our defense got better, or is border control better or our roads better? There's like literally nothing that's improved yet the state has got bigger and taken more. So if the State's got bigger and taken more and everything's got worse, I would say it's not working,

  Andrew Gold

  yeah, but you could argue, in that sense, that a lot of the politics, a lot of this, what the state is implementing, is downstream of a culture. So that's why they're interlinked. The culture changes. People say, let's have a lot of people are noticing as well. I know I'm gonna, I'm gonna sound like an absolute misogynist on this, and I haven't really spoken about this stuff that often. I'm not. I. Do want women to be able to do the same as men? I'm just wondering if the thing I want to happen has been a cause of a huge problem here.

  Peter McCormack

  Well, it could be a giant the whole thing could be a giant myth. Did you see that thing this week about the lady was talking about, why you get screaming white liberal women? It was brilliant. She said, you know, biologically, men and women are created to serve a certain kind of purpose. And historically, if you look at we'll just go with animals. We don't even have to talk about humans. The female species births the child and rears it and looks after it, and is the carer, right? And but it is the same with humans, up until, I don't know, whatever it was whenever we flipped with feminism, the woman's job was to have the child and to build the home and care and raise the children. Well, when women stop having children, but they still haven't that caring part of their kind of their soul, their emotional being, or who are they there to protect? Well, it's every cause that exists out there, and so they're out there screaming and shouting and trying to because they have this innate nature, an innate part of them that wants them to go and care and protect. So maybe if they were just having children, this wouldn't be happening.

  Andrew Gold

  Everything we say could be taken out. We're gonna we're gonna get hammered for this. But on a kind of manosphere pod. Can you be normal?

  Peter McCormack

  Could you imagine the racist, feminist is gonna hate this show. Racist feminist, yeah, what do you mean?

  Andrew Gold

  Well, because we've criticized Steve laws and we've criticized, Oh, I see a racist friend is gonna hate us. The racist there will be some of those. It's an issue. I think it is an issue. And I think it's not just the screaming white liberal. It's also the way that the voting patterns happen, and it affects men as well, because a lot of men want to be in the good group. Be in the good graces of those women. You know, that's basically the what men are on earth to do, is try and impress women. Yes, that's why I learned guitar when I was 16. It was literally the only reason, you know, you want to impress women. It never did. No woman was ever impressed. They didn't care, because everyone was trying to do that guitar trick. Like I play guitar. We don't care, you know, we're going to go off with Brad over there or something, but, I think it's massively affected our politics, and we've sort of moved into this kind of Jacinda, whatever her name is, in New Zealand politics, where, yeah, and that's, again, I'm going back. I'm obsessed. But it has led to a culture change that has been immense. And at the same time, the feminist, the other argument, the other side of that, is like, Hey, you when men kind of were in charge of anything, you had enough wars, you know, you had enough wars, you know, you had enough people killing each other. You had enough poverty, you had enough of all these issues. So that would be the other side that they could say. But it is concerning. It is concerning that there is a much more kind of female look on voting patterns now. And I don't know what we do with that. I don't know how we recenter this, because it feels like it more and more open borders. It's going to be more and more, you know, all the things that we're complaining about will

  Peter McCormack

  be if Zack Polanski becomes prime minister, which, by the way, terrifies me that people actually think he is somebody that can lead a country. I know he's complete dope. He doesn't understand economics either. He's a Marxist. He wants open borders, and he would destroy this country. I mean, look, I mean, I'm look, I'm ranting from the side of the way I look at the world, but I look at the world through the money. And at the moment, I find it terrifying, because at some point this debt has to be repaid back if it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. If you look at, I think under Rachel Reeves, our debt interest, do you have you ever look even look at this the debt interest. So the interest alone that we pay on our debt per year this year will be 110 billion. I think that's up from 98 billion or something last year. That's more than we spend on education. It's more than we spend on defense. I think it's like the third biggest bill we have as a country. I did see that, and

  Andrew Gold

  that is absolutely mental I'm reading that, I told you. I'm reading that. I told you. I'm reading that Lionel Shriver, but the mandibles, yeah, which is about this happening to the states, and I think the whole world really, and it's bloody scary. It's really scary,

  Peter McCormack

  but to service that debt and continue paying for the things I want to pay for, the debt then has to increase even more, and the debt interest gets higher. And when the economy grows at a slower rate than the debt, you eventually get to the point where you either default as a country, or, I don't know what else, but it's

  Andrew Gold

  we're about. Obviously, we're here a really strange period, because I think in 1020, years, like, what? What is the future? Because almost everyone I know is now struggling with work because of AI,

  Peter McCormack

  yes, yeah. But that goes with if technology is deflationary, and the currency was deflationary, like in an ideal world we, you know, people have talked like Keynes. I think was Keynes wanted us to be working a 30 hour week and a 20 hour week with technology being deflatory and making everything better. We should all be able to work less like as a choice,

  Andrew Gold

  yeah, but I don't know if it worked that way, because I feel like it would actually be just some people would have the 50 hour week and then other people would have zero hour weeks. I don't think it would work that everyone has a 20 hour week, because there's not enough. We don't need everyone in that in that future.

  Peter McCormack

  But, yeah, but think about it like this, if technology is taking jobs away, but everything's getting more expensive, why is that happening? If, if technology is improving life. But I. Pound doesn't go as far as far as it should. Why is that?

  Andrew Gold

  Well, that's one point, and I get that, I think you were saying before, but that's related to inflation. The government's putting too much money. And I appreciate that point, but I think as a separate point, the societies that we've built have only worked based on people having to work. Each individual, or at least each household, has had to work and give something to society that is needed in order to get something back. So we're talking not just about how each person can earn money, but how they can have purpose in life and purpose. Yeah, I just don't even know in 1020, years. I mean, the job I did when I was in Argentina, most of the work I did, I ended up working for a company that they wanted travel articles written, and they were a travel writing agency, and they would then send those to Expedia, who would put them on their website. I don't even know where, and so I did that writing, and they would send me like Sydney. They would say, Sydney, here's 10 places of interest, cathedral, so and so. And I would do that without traveling. I would stay where I was, either in Buenos Aires or later in Berlin, and just put things together that I found online. That's what they wanted me to do. There was no travel budget, so I didn't actually go. But I was right anyway. I mean, that was I stopped doing that when I started this podcast. So five, six years ago, that there's no way that job exists now, because the chat GPT can do that in five seconds, or what, half a second that's gone. It's amazing to see it. I know people talk about it in the press or whatever. You see the news articles written about it, but I that job I had has gone, and that I'm so fortunate that got me through living abroad for some years, and I don't think that's been replaced by anything.

  Peter McCormack

  Yeah. And look, some jobs are going to go and they're not coming back. Marketing is being heavily I know people have got six figure jobs in marketing, and they've lost their jobs and that job's not coming back. Yeah.

  Andrew Gold

  And those people probably had big mortgages because they had a good salary. That's if I had lost my job five years ago I was on basically minimum wage anyway. I mean, that's still shitty, but at least I didn't have these mortgages and those kinds of things

  Peter McCormack

  going on. But, but there are other ways that society can adjust to accommodate this. I mean, 65 is the kind of general retirement age that people want. The only reason that ever goes up is because the state pension as a Ponzi. That's the only reason, because the government literally cannot afford the state pension and but if we had a world where the currency appreciated rather than depreciated, you maybe would have people retiring earlier. Think like if, I mean when they die earlier. Well, so. But if you know, if you're saving away for a pension, if you think of money as a proxy of time, right? So you work hard, you save money in some kind of way so you can retire at some point. But if the money's been inflated, you have to work a bit harder than you would. Most people retire at 65 if you said, Could you retire at 60 they would. My dad retired at 61 gave up 30% of his pension to go four years early, okay, 30% of his pension because he's still with us. He's still with us. He's actually, he lives with us six months a year. Yeah, he's great guy. But my mum retired at the same time. Five years later, cancer and she died, and so that was sad, but, yeah, that's it's fine. But the point being is people, I feel it now 47 thinking I don't want to retire at 60 I want to retire at 55 maybe even do you?

  Andrew Gold

  Yeah, a lot of people I speak to, it's the opposite. They're saying, Gosh, what am I going to do? I'm talking my dad's in his mid 70s. He still sort of does a bit of what he potters about. He tries to do a bit of this

  Peter McCormack

  and that. I won't do nothing. I'll maybe do this couple of days a week. We'll make a show. You don't think this is work, but yeah, but I think as dad, as an aircraft engineer, he, at 65 doesn't want to be doing that. And I just think you could lower the retirement age. People just go a bit earlier. Now that's optional, but that is a way that society can adjust. Or you could just have a four day week so there are more jobs out there, or a three day week. But the problem is, technology is deflationary, so it's taking jobs away, but money is inflationary, so it's taking jobs away that people can't afford to have. And the reason money is inflationary is because the entire structure, like it's structurally, how it has to work, is that the money is created by the government and given to the rich to take all the assets. It's not a conspiracy. Conspiracy. It's just math. And we have, the only way you can get away from this is by having a currency that is, isn't inflationary.

  Andrew Gold

  Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's hard. I mean, by the way, there are people to explain this way better than me. I don't believe that for a second this is going to be sort of, yeah. Finance expert explains to a monkey how to but because I don't know, I don't know enough about the economy. I do know that milay, I loved, at first, the idea of, but a lot of Argentinians now not at all happy with the price of living has gone up so much. Yeah, where are the complaints there? Because you read different reports. Some people say it's where, like, he got rid of price rent controls, and rents have dropped. Inflation has dropped. I'm hearing from friends of friends. So it's anecdotal. I'm giving anecdotal stuff I'm not giving. Yeah, I don't know enough about it.

  Peter McCormack

  Is that not the is it the peronista Perry? The peronistas, yeah, they just love inflate. They love, like, relaying the roads in Buenos Aires, don't they?

  Andrew Gold

  When I was in Argentina, back on holiday. I wasn't living there anymore when Millais got into power, and the date, the day before he was going to be voted in, when the votes were being collected. And I was with, you know, family, friends of my wife and all of that. And as you can probably imagine, similar to when Trump got in, it was, it was like a dystopian horror film among them, and I it's not my country, so it's not my place to be, you know, that's why I think so many people are bad guests in other countries. And I'm a guest in that country when I'm there. So I don't sit there and say, like, Hey, I'll tell you what's what, but I just go, okay, tell me why. Why is this going to be a problem, you know? And it was screaming and crying. Everyone was going to lose and I think, to be fair, a few of my wife's friends did lose their jobs because they were state functionaries, you know?

  Peter McCormack

  And he that's but that's what I would do if I was, yeah, if I was Prime Minister of England, I would get rid of the majority of the state because the set because then they've got to find work elsewhere, and I don't know that's they got to go into the product productive parts of society, because the state is unproductive. It survives off, yeah, like you work for the state. I work. We work six to seven months a year for the state. So if you, I always find it interesting, if you look at how much you actually pay, like really, in tax, actually, you only start earning money in late September, early October, wow, starting from so if you assume, like a high you know higher starting from January. So a high earner pays around 45 50% tax on your income. But if you throw in VAT alcohol duty, fuel duty, I don't know, stamp duty. You stop putting all the taxes in. You start working January, and you start earning money end of September, start of October. And what do you get for that? Less and less it appears. And I bet you use less and less public services because they're so shit. Yeah, yeah.

  Andrew Gold

  I suppose people could argue it's a way of sort of giving back to because there were times when I had to use more

  Peter McCormack

  public services, sure, but I'm not. I'm not, I'm not saying we should have no public services now. I just think it's got a big there's a correlation between how much money has been created, how much debt we have, and then how high taxes are and how shit our services have got.

  Andrew Gold

  Did you? Did you? Did you read about the bears in New Hampshire. No, so, New Hampshire. They had a town that was able to go they were able to do the libertarian experiment. They were they went fully libertarian, you know, which I'm not against. I was interested in what happened then. I don't know how it works on a federal and a state and or town level, but they didn't seem to have to pay taxes. Okay, I've read this somewhere. I think it's a proper it's been backed. It's a real this hatch New Hampshire is the most libertarian state, so yeah, and I think it was Carolyn Carlin borisenko, I was having this debate with her. She's, she's, she ran for on a Libertarian ticket, or whatever she was going for that. And they were doing all right at first, but then they realized that nobody was paying to ensure that bears wouldn't attack, and bears came and killed loads of them and ate their dogs. Yeah, you can't have that.

  Peter McCormack

  Well, there are always good arguments against it, and the ones like, for example, a fire service. If you had a private fire service, would people really pay for it? And I know malaise defunded the fire service in Argentina, and they've just had some big fires up in the forest in Patagonia. Oh, yes. And now he's talked about foreign investors come and buy that land. So look, there are certain things like, I'm not for libertarian. I accept there are certain things that are best socialized, the borders. I would socialize the management of our borders, I would socialize a fire service certain parts. There's certain things I'm not as extreme as other libertarians. What I would do, though, is just, I just would get away from the government being able to create as much money as they want. Because there was a thing like, where was I reading it? Something like, we've, we've injected 200 trillion of debt into the global economy, and we've had like, 40% growth for that period. Something ridiculous. I'll dig out the numbers for you. I'll send you the book. So, I mean, I like, I usually interview somebody I'm just now lecturers.

  Andrew Gold

  It's point I think a lot of the crux of what we've been talking about is culture versus economics in terms of what is killing us. Yeah, ultimately, one another. And I think people who are not doing as well as they were 1020 years ago, things are harder economically. Would be much happier or less unhappy if they could get out on their street and recognize people around them, you know, if they didn't feel constantly that they were annoying people just by being alive, as a white man, for example, if they were not constantly told that by the BBC and cultures like that stuff, I mean, status is usually has a huge effect. It's one of the leading causes of suicide. Like, if your status suddenly drops, that can be economic. Yeah, but white men, their status has dropped unbelievably quickly, like the last 20 years. It's like plummeted. We see the kids at school. White kids perform much worse. So that side is cultural. And so there's a direct correlation between this cultural impact of, like, white people, you are bad, and now what we're seeing which is white kids now performing really badly at school, which will later affect their lives economically as well. So there, I think they're intertwined. And similarly, if you are worried about the culture and you don't recognize it and so on, but you're making a pretty penny, you're also going to be less unhappy. So I think both of those are huge aspects about people's happiness, to do with the country and where we are right now. Are you optimistic? No, I just think there's two. I just think there's two. There are too many factors. I mean, we've discussed, yeah, it's just so much. And then, and how do you I'm never a believer, really, in the big guys pulling strings. I take your point about certain rich people. Maybe there is a case for that to be made. But I think also, to some extent, where, you know, what is it? A train without a driver? It's too big. There's 70 million in this country or 60 million. It's just that. That's one of the reasons we get things so wrong. Often, covid, for example, you hear the numbers of people dying. Those numbers are really scary, just like you and I speaking before about Twitter. Gosh, all these people are having to go at me. It's really scary because we, our brains, cannot fathom 70 million in a country. Cannot even begin to think of that number. So when you see 1000 dying, you got blood, but that many have been killed by cars every now and then.

  Peter McCormack

  Did you see that one that first meet? I don't know. It's the first meeting, one of the first meetings that Keir Starmer hosted at Downing Street. It was with Larry Fink. Do you know Larry Fink is so he runs BlackRock? Right, okay, it's BlackRock. I've, God knows, how much can you have a look at BlackRock? Aum. I mean, they're the largest asset manager in the world. They get to decide where money goes. So I used to not believe in the guys pulling the strings. And it's not like a room of lizard people thinking 14 trillion, 14 trillion assets under management. So they want those assets to be productive. Okay, so where are those assets productive? Well, any place where there is high levels of debt that they get to have access to early on and to invest. He's also been recently talking about rebuilding Ukraine again, put their productive assets into Ukraine to rebuild it. So I don't think it's as evil as, oh, let's go and start a war there so we can rebuild it. But it's opportunity. There are people making business decisions, yeah, and I so I actually do believe in these 150 Should we play that Chamath video very quickly? If you can, I do actually believe, but it's not like an evil cabal of lizard people. I just think it's the money goes where it can be made and it can be made where it can capture government. The issue with capitalism, I suppose, but this isn't capitalism, but you can't have capitalism under a fiat currency, because capitalism requires a separation of money and state. Real capitalism. This is really interesting.

  Unknown Speaker

  That's not gonna happen.

  Peter McCormack

  Once he's there, oh no, he will. He'll get there. He'll get there. So he's one of the most he's like. So he's worth about 5 billion. He's a Silicon Valley investor, and

  Andrew Gold

  the people who often want to then open the door for others suddenly don't often want to open the door

  Peter McCormack

  as much. Well you open the doors for the right people. So he has to prove that he deserves a seat at the table and he understands how money flows work, and that he's going to support that system. But it sounds like something that's really conspiratorial, like there's 150 guys that run the world and like, say it's not like lizard people, but it is the money men. It is the people who control the money, the money flows. And why would investors put money in the UK at the moment? Okay, I don't know. I'm not the guy to answer it, but Larry Fink can get a meeting with the Prime Minister of any country like that, just like that. Right? And he's going to give them a reason for that. BlackRock might put money in that country. They might say, I don't know. Farming is important for us. We want to start owning farms. And then we might see an inheritance tax on farms that requires people, if they want to keep their farm, they're going to have to take out a loan now to be able to pay for that inheritance tax. And so once you start to see you start to connect the dots, it is the outcome is evil. The structure is just the logic of money, and the logic of money flows, but the outcome is evil. And ever since I've seen it's taken me, like, eight years, 10 years, to see it. Now, when you see it, you see in everything, every time you see Blackrock somewhere, or you go, okay, that just makes sense, because that's the way the money flows. And so that's why we're structurally set up to allow the asset managers get the debt that comes from the government when they create the money, and then they can suck up all the assets. So yeah, that's where I'm at.

  Andrew Gold

  I know none of it's gonna matter when we've got our own caliphate here. Yeah, all AI is the robots. Yeah. So I bought

  Peter McCormack

  a robot, by the way, yeah. When do we get it? Hopefully never. He doesn't want us to get it. What is it? Some robot comes empties the dishwasher and stuff. Neo Connor has PTSD because his favorite film as a kid was I Robot. And he must have watched that film. How many? Times too many. But now he's, like, convinced, if I get a robot in the house, it's gonna kill us.

  Andrew Gold

  It's not as good as AI, is it? Why did artificial intelligence that film? You wouldn't have seen that, would you? Oh, if you like, I Robot. It's like that, but 10 times better. It's got to watch artificial intelligence. Spielberg, someone where the little boy, guy from the sixth sense. The kid, yeah, the kid, have you seen the sixth sense? You and you've got a good night ahead of you. AI and the sixth he's going out with his boys in London. He's got a good night ahead of him. Listen, boys, sorry to let you know, but sorry, let you down. I'm gonna have cancer. I'm gonna watch AI and the sixth sense. We're gonna do a Hayley Joel Osman double.

  Peter McCormack

  I think, I think you should go down the money rabbit hole. Yeah.

  Andrew Gold

  I mean, look, it's, it's, it's a scary, interesting world. It's a funny thing. I wonder sometimes if there's kind of a genetic thing. Everyone's slightly different. And there are, you know, some people I know, get drunk easily. They like to have a bit of alcohol. Some people, yeah, that's you. There you go. Was I just don't. I've been sober late. I don't even as boring as me. Some people can run marathons, right? I know they would say, Oh, I train and blah. I know, you know, but I can't. I'm bored. If I run for five minutes, I'm bored. I'm so bored. So it's different kind of brains. And I think my brain, when it comes to money and economics, I my brain can sometimes just shut down.

  Peter McCormack

  There are people I know to watch this and come Pete, you did a really shit job of explaining that there are better people than me,

  Andrew Gold

  because you can speak to a lay person. I mean, explain it. I think they'll like that. And I think it's nice people to hear that explain someone who's not a money person, because a lot of your audience will be, and it's been interesting for me, but yet, going too far into that rabbit hole my brain does, you know? And I'm enjoying that Lionel Shriver book, but I don't know if I'd read 10 in a row like that, yeah, because my brain would just go whereas I have family members who might be much more into or friends who are more into that, it just doesn't quite doesn't work with my head. My wife handles like my finances.

  Peter McCormack

  Final question Would, would you leave? Is there a point? Do you have a red line? You're asking me, no, no, but you leave? Andrew, yeah, get the fuck is it? Do you have a red line? You're like, I just can't stay here anymore.

  Andrew Gold

  Because, I mean, I used to say yes, I wanted to get a an Argentinian passport through my wife, okay, oh, she's Argentinian. Yeah, so that I could, she fiery, yeah? Well, she would say no, yeah. She would resoundly say no, with passion, but, but yeah, I would, I love Argentina. I love, I love, you know, it's used against me since I started saying that on social media, you know, oh, you can just f after you're Jew. You can f off to Argentina. But it's not because I'm Jewish. It's because I went out there and I met a woman there you anyone else could do that as well? If they so wanted, most wouldn't want to. I think it's, it's, it's a good idea for anybody to get it if you can, through marriage or through some sort of ancestry, get a backup passport, buy one or buy one. It can't hurt, because if something bad would happen and then people say, Oh, wouldn't you stay and fight? And it's like, well, yes, to a point, you know, if we are at a point where, and I think it could happen, and I know it sounds, it sounds, but I think we could get to a point where we have some kind of Islamic uprising in this country, where I think you only need sort of 1520, 25% the country start getting more inroads into voting and politics becomes like Lebanon, exactly. I. That can happen Lebanon, around Afghanistan, I think that is unlikely in the next 10 years, but not inconceivable. And you've got to make that when you have a family, you have a house, you've got a mortgage, you've got all these things. You have to think about that. Yeah, and I'm now prominently known as a Jew. And if that were to happen, and we're just going to have some problems with people going around to houses and around ransacking and murdering and those kinds of things. I would be a target. Yeah, I'd be top of the list. There. Aren't. There aren't, you know, I don't even want to go too far into that publicly and make that, you know, you don't want to make yourself a target. It's a scary thought. And if that were to happen, then you have to think about leaving. You have to think, where the hell can I get out to? The problem is, what might happen in Britain if it happens here? And a doctor, professor, David bett, spoke about this, I really want to interview him. He's really good. He's really good, and he makes the point of civil war. I think he thinks it's an 18 and a half percent. He's worked out the exact percentage.

  Peter McCormack

  I don't know how six of the seven conditions have been met, right? Something like that, an

  Andrew Gold

  18 and a half percent chance that in the next five years there'll be civil war. Now, he doesn't specifically label it as kind of Islam versus he labels it sectarian violence, yes, and what? And cities versus, you know, because it's the white fright people are moving out into the countryside, and cities versus countryside kind of thing. And that's how he sees it. It's it's really scary. And he says that once that happens in one country, it tends to spread. So if we were to suddenly find ourselves in some kind of civil war, then immediately afterwards, perhaps Ireland might be and then Sweden and Germany and Holland and France, which is already gone in respects.

  Unknown Speaker

  So we're all have to go to Poland and Hungary. Yeah. Well,

  Andrew Gold

  yeah. I mean, where do you go? You look at those places and you go, okay, yeah. Can you get into Poland and Hungary? Can you get to the states? Maybe Texas, you know, somewhere like that, where they're which is funny, they'll be the last people, sort of protecting other kind of white people, or something. Australia seems to be gone. Islam is now spreading into South America slowly, but we have family in Argentina, so it was harder than I thought to get that passport. You have to do a whole bunch of stuff. So, and I say all this as a kind of like worst case scenario, I don't take it entirely seriously right now. So for now, everything's fine. But yeah, I would encourage anybody if we're at a point where we're about to be completely murdered and our country is turning Islamic, get out before it happens. I get frustrated because my words will be misinterpreted. They'll clip it everywhere and go. It's another subversive Jew who wants to just leave up and leave when the going gets tough. I'm saying stay and fight for your country. But if there's a point at which your family is about to be killed, I would hope that your ideology comes second, and your family, that's your children, your wife, your husband, your parents, that you want to make them safe first, yeah, and

  Peter McCormack

  that's it. Well, man, it was great to talk to you. I always like talking to somebody who does the similar job, yeah, see what I can learn from them. It's a lonely job. It is. You've done a great job with heretics. Congratulations. Thank you very much. Very, very cool. Actually, I haven't listened to the Robbie Williams one. Oh, and I really want to. I went to university in High Wycombe, and we used to have this thing called the May ball, which is just like a black tie do for 1000 students. And it wasn't going well for Robbie Williams before he released angels, and he was booked to play our May ball, and he released angels and blew up and still honored it. So I saw him play at a university. Wow, yeah, very cool. So I do want to watch that. He was probably off his mind on drugs at the time. Probably, yeah, so was I probably. He's a lovely man, really lovely man, and very different to most celebrities. I think the fact that he came on the show and

  Andrew Gold

  doesn't give a shit, when a lot of them are so worried about you know, and that's the irony, is they're all so worried, and then if they do come on our shows, it's well more a break and cover. Matthew McCormack, Hey, Jimmy Carr, like nothing really happens to them. So Ricky Gervais, obviously. And you could argue, okay, those guys are so big they can't be canceled. And it's the kind of middle ones that are worried. Are they are there? What happened to Rylan when he spoke about immigration? Yeah, I've not heard of him since. So that's the worry, and I get it, but if they all broke cover at once, yeah, that's how, that's how we all toppled Scientology. Scientology used to do their fair gaming, so they would, which meant fair game, and you can go after anybody who criticizes Scientology. So people were scared to speak out and say anything about the cult, because they would come around your house. There are rumors, allegations that pets were murdered, and murder a pet killed is murder only for humans. I don't know black pets were killed and so on. Eventually, with the internet and with South Park, they played a pivotal role, incredible and WikiLeaks as well. They all played this huge role. Everybody kind of came out at once to attack them, and they realized they looked silly going after everybody at one. And they just went, screw it. And they just went inwards. They stopped attacking everyone. They hardly ever speak publicly now, and their numbers are dwindling. So I. What I mean to say is there are a lot of kind of celebrities that, if they all broke cover at once, we wouldn't have to listen to the really insufferable ones. I can't even think of some of their names, but Bloody hell, some of these people are lecturing us about various issues around the world. Yeah, that would Hollywood actors. The moment you take any currency away from that, the moment you stop rewarding that Spanish actors in no country, Javier, bad limb. Yeah. Mark Ruffalo, Mark Ruffalo, Seth Rogen, he's come out with a few things, but they're all gonna get replaced by AI. So like, fuck off. I know it's the one place where I'm just delighted. Yeah, I feel sorry for the writers, because the writers are really talented people, but the actors I you know, get another move on. Do musical theaters. That's talented work like fair play. I don't need you in movies anymore,

  Peter McCormack

  man, listen, congratulations. Keep doing your things. Great to meet you, and I wish you all the best. I been listening to your show quite a bit more since the Steve Ross one, and fuck the haters. Ignore the comments and do your thing. Thank you very much. Thank you to everyone for listening. We'll see you soon. You.